Reading help...

[Houseworkprocrastinator]

I need a little bit of help with explaining some sounds to my daughter. In school they follow the jolly phonics (i think) and since doing the initial sounds in reception, they haven't brought any sounds home so i have no idea what they are learning. ("nothing" according to her) She is currently in year 1 but i think a little ahead in her reading than the majority of the class but i am now struggling to help her with the 'rules' when reading.

Things that have come up recently are...

when CH makes a c sound (she has had words like archaeology, chameleon and character)

when S makes a sh sound (measure, unusual, sugar etc)

Are there any rules to help explain when these happen?

we have also been having words ending in TION and SION are these taught as whole sounds?

Thanks in advance...

[maizieD]

Marsha was a Secondary English teacher. We all know how expert they are at teaching phonics

She wouldn't touch the RRF with a bargepole; we're more interested in teaching children to read and spell now.

[Missbopeep]

You are entitled to your opinion.

However, IMO you are misguided at best and misinformed at worst.

I assume you are not a professional and have no training in teaching reading or phonics?

If so, it's a bit like me telling a surgeon how to do an opeation just because I took a splinter out of my child's finger.

Maybe take some of the time you obviously have to look at the website of the Reading Reform group, Debbie Hepplewhite ( same as RRG), Jolly Phonics and the work of Sue Lloyd.

[Mashabell]

Missbopeep
Are you arguing that phonics etc should not be used because some words do not fit with he majority?
No. I am merely trying to explain why phonics is of limited use even for learning to read, why children also as u say
of course use context as a guide when reading.
For learning to spell English 'correctly' (rather than phonically), beyond the basic stage, it is even more useless.

[Missbopeep]

Oh well I didn't know there was a back history to her posts.

Sorry masha but you need to read around more before you come jumpng in with half baked ideas.

[maizieD]

I don't really understand your point TBH. Are you arguing that phonics etc should not be used because some words do not fit with he majority?

When I first encountered marsha a few years ago she was just campaigning for the reform of English spelling. When I, and others, pointed out to her that good systematic synthetic or linguistic phonics instruction was extremely effective in teaching children to spell well she widened her campaign to include anti-phonics in her message.

She hasn't a clue about how SP or LP instruction works but she's anti it all the same. More children able to spell well would make her campaign look a bit weak...

[Missbopeep]

sorry- typos! -ow as in how.

[Missbopeep]

You must have far too much time on your hands!
Far easier to read some of the work already carried out by experts - which you seem ignorant of.

You also show a complete misunderstnading of how spelling and reading are taught. eg

A final -o (go) has several unpredictable spellings (toe, snow, though, sew), and as u pointed out, ow has two pronunciations which children have learn to read correctly in different words

Children are taught these spellings as groups of words, not separately in isolation.
So with toe they would learn all the other -oe words.
Same for -ow
same for -ough
same for sew

If these are taughts systematically using multi sensory methods and also re-learning ( going back over them every couple of weeks) then they stick.

They also of course use context as a guide when reading, as do we as adults. eg "In the field were some black and white cows" I doubt they would struggle to know if it was ,ow as in "oh" or ow as in snow.

I don't really understand your point TBH. Are you arguing that phonics etc should not be used because some words do not fit with he majority?

[Mashabell]

I don't think I agree with your 55% for spelling. Most of the books and experts I studied when training ( not in primary ed but as a specialist) gave much higher figures than 55%.
Because I had seen many different claims about how regular or irregular English spelling is, I decided to establish this beyond a shadow of doubt by analysing the spellings of the 7,000 most used English words. I found that 3,695 of them contain one or more unpredictable spellings (frIend, cheQUered, coPy - cf. poppy).
The people who claim that English spelling is more regular than it is are nearly all apologists for English spelling. They try to make u believe that it is not nearly as bad as it is, and that bad spelling is simply the result of bad teaching.

Re
wag - was, ear - early, dream - dreamt, now - slow.

Unlike any other alphabetically written language, English poses spelling AND READING difficulties. - The others have no spellings with more than one pronunciation like the above.

'Wag' makes regular use of those letters, but because 'wa' is an almost regular subpattern for the /o/ sound (was, want, wash), this creates reading difficulties.

The /ee/ sound has a completely unpredictable spelling:
eat ? eel, even, ceiling, field, police, people, me, key, ski, debris, quay (ea in 152 words ? other spellings in 304),
and because [ea] has several sounds (treat, ear - great, threat, wear) it poses decoding difficulties as well (unlike ee which has just one sound, like all spellings in other European languages do.)

A final -o (go) has several unpredictable spellings (toe, snow, though, sew), and as u pointed out, ow has two pronunciations which children have learn to read correctly in different words.

For reading, context helps them with choosing the right one.
For spelling, they simply have to memorise the correct spelling for each word.
Masha Bell

[mrz]

I'll leave you try and work out what masha means ...I have a violent allergy to her lists

[Missbopeep]

sorry I forgot to put "..................." round masha's post- first 2 lines.

I wasn't sure if she was saying that those sounds didn't conform to a pattern or were regular.

Maybe she can help us both.

[mrz]

Sorry Missbopeep now you have me confused

[Missbopeep]

the rogue spellings which don't use the main patterns:
wag - was, ear - early, dream - dreamt, now - slow.

ear followed by other letters can say a lot of the time- earth, heard, early,

has 2 sounds- the sound as in cow, and the sound as in grow. Children are taught these 2 sounds.

[Missbopeep]

masha I don't understand your post.

What were you trying to say?

I don't think I agree with your 55% for spelling. Most of the books and experts I studied when training ( not in primary ed but as a specialist) gave much higher figures than 55%.

Could you tell me the source of your evidence please? Be good to know.

[mrz]

masha those words are easily decodable!

[Mashabell]

p.s. 85% of words conform to phonics
Wrong. For reading 80% are decodable, because some variant spellings do not pose decoding problems (fly - high, mane - lain).
For spelling, 55% of English words contain one or more unpredictable letters.

[Missbopeep]

p.s. 85% of words conform to phonics- the rest are either high frequency irregularwords which are learned in other ways or irregular words which are a bugger but which have to be memorised. Even the irregular wods such as those ending in - ough can usually be grouped together: rough, tough, enough, dough, although, etc etc etc.

Ther are more spelling rules ( not really rules but more words that are pronounced the same) than most people imagine- it's just that most people have not sat down and worked out why they are as they are.

[Missbopeep]

masha The OP asked if there is a rule when 'ch' is pronounced /k/. - There isn't. They have to be learnt word by word, but in the early stage of learning to read children can use other letters in those words to help them work out which it should be

I think you will find that "ch" as a "chu" sound only comes after a vowel. eg church, chap, and at the end of words when preceded by either a vowel or a consonant- eg lurch. touch.

and "ch" as a "k" is on the rare occasions when it's followed by a consonant- eg chromosome and Christ.

.

[mrz]

they should continue to learn the different ways that sounds can be written in English.

so er-in fern
ir in girl- ur in curl - or in word - ear in learn -ar in collar
ou in shout
ow in owl- ough in bough
ie in tie
igh in high
i-e in mine
y in cry

ue in true
o in to
ew in new
oo in moon
oe in shoe
ou in soup
ui in fruit
ough in through

etc.

[Houseworkprocrastinator]

thank you tgger, will look at those. always good to revise stuff and i still have one who starts school in september so she will be learning too.

when they did the sounds in reception they brought home photo copied sheets from the jolly phonics hand book to practice writing them. this went as far as having er, ou, ie, ue, oo but i have seen nothing since then so i don't know if they have learned any more.

[Tgger]

I don't remember really either, just have pieced together what my Mum has told me, which seemed to be flashcards and some sounding out. .

I know you say you don't find the teacher approachable, but it might be worth making an appointment to talk to her about this issue so you can help your DD. They seem to be revising all the sounds and particularly the difficult ones in Y1 at DS's school, but I think they covered all if not most in YR by the end of the year.

Or, you could teach her the remaining phonics sounds/the split vowels- eg i-e etc yourself. What I found with DS is that his reading was way ahead of the phonics in school, so I taught him in an amateur way myself, piecing it together as I went along, then the phonics teaching at school caught up- he would bring the sound sheets home (this was in YR) so it consolidated his learning and gave me a clue/confirmed I'd taught him right(!), re how they teach the sounds at school. They followed the RWI programme for learning the sounds.

Just had an idea for you. If you are keen you can buy phonics cards- this might help you and give you all the clue you need. I bought them for DS in the end as he really wanted to play school- they are here www.amazon.co.uk/Read-Write-Inc-Phonics-Flashcards/dp/0198386818/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1358616760&sr=8-2&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-21. Those are the harder ones but you can see the easier ones (green ones) as well. DS has both! (he knew all of the sounds when I bought them), he was just keen to "teach" me and his sister .

They seem to be revising all the sounds and particularly the difficult ones in Y1 but I think they covered all if not most in YR by the end of the year.

[Houseworkprocrastinator]

i cant remember learning to read, the only thing i remember is watching words and pictures in school :)

i don't think my daughter has learned enough phonics in school though, i don't know weather this is because her reading is slightly ahead of the teachings or that they don't follow an in depth program. I would like her to have a bit more knowledge of it even if she is reading by sight a lot of the time.

[Tgger]

Which is how many, many children learn to read. Myself and DS included. His phonics is better than mine though due to more thorough teaching .

[Houseworkprocrastinator]

oops... i didn't mean for a debate

it is useful to know all the phonics rules and sounds, i dont think it was taught like this when i was in school. But it seems to me that some children (and i think my daughter included) are taught the initial 42? sounds and then given books to bring home and read. the rest of her knowledge has kind of come from me so far. I have taught her many of the sounds after that and some rules like the magic e (i know that isn't taught any more) but i also have at times just told her what the word is e.g through, laugh, brought etc. mainly because i had no idea how to explain the gh and ght thing. so i think she has learned through a combination of phonics and by sight.

[mrz]

Just being able to do so for 3,000 most HF words already turns children into quite fluent readers

Do you mean the 300 most HFW?

The average child has a vocabulary of 4000-6000 pre school and learns about 3000 more words each year so learning 7000 words is pretty limiting

[Feenie]

And Masha, you forgot to remind us how many classes of children you have taught to read successfully?