Ex & I just can't agree on school choices

[UnbridledPositivity]

What do we do to solve this? We agree on our third choice, but he wants school A as first choice, school B as second choice, and I want it the other way round.

Help! (To give the whole picture: all schools are more or less fine. I will be doing school runs without a car, school B is on my way to work, school A is opposite direction. This doesn't affect my choice really, it's more that I didn't like several aspects and the general feel of school A.

Ex is adamant he didn't like the feel of school B as it reminds him of schools he went to. I've heard many positive things about school B, some negative about A. Ex's boss is a governor at school A.

[admission]

I chair school admission appeals for a number of LAs and as such am completely independent of the school admission units in each LA.
As such I hear lots of confidential information about both parents and pupils at such appeal hearings, however I do appreciate and understand your comments about not wanting to divulge any private information.
If you go to the school admission section of the LA where these schools are located, you should be able to establish from the information there exactly how many pupils were admitted last year and under what admission category. The problem is that the information is not always the easiest to find. I would start by looking in the school admission booklet published by the LA, which will be on the website somewhere.

[UnbridledPositivity]

Thank you.

School A admits 24, priorities are SEN, children in care, siblings, distance. (DD fulfils distance criterion.)

School B admits 60 and has the same criteria, except that siblings of the junior school are also given priority.
So DD is bottom of the list in each case.

Also, School A goes up to yr6, whereas school B requires transfer to junior school for yr3-6. Does that make a big difference?

Also managed to find out that school B was oversubscribed a few years ago (couldn't find anything recent), and school A has a paid PR adviser (a PR adviser, ffs!).

School A also has hardly any outside space, and relies mostly on 'community business partners'.

[prh47bridge]

My involvement in admissions started with getting a place for my youngest at the local primary school after moving to my current address. The whole thing hinged on the fact the LA were misinterpreting part of the Admissions Code, although it took two appeals and two references to the LGO to prove it. Ever since then I have been advising parents on admissions issues and have helped a number win appeals. Many Mumsnetters and others have shared confidential information with me over the years. I can promise you that anything you choose to share with me will go no further.

Given those admission criteria it is likely that the last child admitted for both schools this year was on distance. The LA's website should tell you that for sure, probably in the Primary School Admissions Booklet or similar. The things you need to know are the distance for the last child admitted for each school and how far you are from each school by the method of measurement used by the LA.

The information about the distance for the last child admitted should be on the LA's website but you may have to ring them or email them to get an answer. They should be able to provide an instant answer. You won't be able to get an accurate figure for the distance from your house to the school but there are a number of websites that will be able to give you a rough idea. Make sure you pick one that uses the right method of measurement - some LAs use the shortest straight line distance, others use shortest walking distance or similar.

There are no guarantees but, in broad terms, if you are a long way outside the distance for the last child admitted this year it is unlikely you will get a place at that school for September 2013. So if the last child admitted for school A lived 400m from the school and you live 750m away it is very unlikely you will get a place there.

[UnbridledPositivity]

Thank you, that is very helpful! I will ring them asap then, as I couldn't find any info on which criteria were used for children admitted this year. Have found out official distance, so that's something I guess.

[admission]

The other thing that you need to check is what the admission criteria is for the junior school and what the admission number for the school is. Hopefully school B pupils will get priority at the junior school but in some cases they do not. If then the junior school is considered to be the "go to" school locally you could well find that there are far more applications than places, so it would be unwise to assume that the move from infant to junior school would be automatic.

The admission number of school A at 24 is not a normal number. What that suggests is that they either have 7 small classrooms, that are only capable of taking 24 in each class or as likely that they have only 6 classrooms that are capable of taking 30. Given they have only been open a couple of years, it might be quite difficult to be sure what the class size is, but if they are 24 at present I would not bet on them staying that way in the future as the school fills up in all year groups. It would be sensible to ask how many classrooms they have actually got. 6 says they will eventually have classes of 24 in reception, year 1 and year 2, with 31 or 32 pupils in the three junior year classes.

I actually admire school A for taking on a paid PR adviser. They realise the advantages of positive information about the school and need to have professional help in maximising this. That makes an assumption that what they are spending is not excessive, but bums on seats = funding, so it can be a worthwhile investment.

[UnbridledPositivity]

Interesting points, thanks. Yes, I would be worried about getting a place at junior school.

Take your point about PR, the school was actually oversubscribed in its first year, so must have been successful. It just seems so naff in the context of the general impression I got.

[UnbridledPositivity]

We still haven't come to an agreement. Arrrrgh! I really didn't want this time which is emotional anyway to turn into this stressful thing.
Have contacted a mediation person, we'll see if we can manage to get an appointment before the school application deadline.
Ex suggested one of us make the decision now, and the other one will make the next one. Is it me, or is that crazy? If I make this decision, I won't stop caring about subsequent decisions.

He also keeps harping on about strategies to find a compromise. Of course it would be great to come to some sort of compromise, but wouldn't it be much more useful to talk about the actual problem, ie schools?! I'm feeling quite manipulated now.
The annoying thing is that we actually more or less have the same values when it comes to schools - we just disagree on which school fulfils our criteria best. But his views of school A seem to be partly based on things which are not true, ie he hasn't looked up much background, whereas I have. When I told him this he said I was just trying to tell him he was stupid. Not at all my aim, I just think it would be better to know the actual facts and not make them up.

I made a pros and cons list of each school and showed it to him. He didn't want to make his own list as 'that's not his preferred method for reaching decisions'. He disagrees with most points I put on the list, but made a big song and dance about how he'd accept 2 of them - 1 of those is that uniform would be more expensive for school A. So this again makes me feel manipulated as uniform cost can be sorted out somehow, I'll have a while to save up/he'll pay half etc, whereas other objections to school A cant be sorted out so easily. So it seems like he makes concessions where he can afford to do so without weakening his negotiation position, iyswim.

He also keeps buying DD presents - she's just had a whole lot of Christmas presents, she doesn't need something new every time she sees him! This, together with a few things he's said, makes me think he's trying to be some sort of father of the year.

[GateGipsy]

How long have you been seperated? To me he sounds insecure. I take it he's not the resident parent. Even with generous access - every other weekend, an evening/day in the week, the non-resident parent will begin to feel it, even if they don't conciously realise it. That they don't have any control over a huge chunk of the child's life, that no amount of access makes up for missing out on the little things, the stuff we think of as mundane but actually make up a huge chunk of our lives. All those little five minutes here and there were information is exchanged. We don't tell each other about all that is going in our lives in one session each day, and this is particularly true with children. It is a little snippet here as they put on their shoes, something else shared while brushing teeth, something else as they hop from foot to foot waiting for you to get your coat.

I was part of a support group for many years when the step kids were younger, and this sounds like classic behaviour from the dad, who is the usual non-resident parent. He is feeling classic dad guilt, and he's pushing on his choice because there's not a lot in it, and right now he's feeling like so much else is slipping away from him. He has that fatherly need to protect his daughter but is realising just how much of her time is outside of his protection.

The absent parent guilt leads to the parent buying lots of presents, trying to be the fun parent, and making 'allowances'. Like letting children be rude to them, letting them eat ice cream for dinner, or stay up late, or do whatever they want at their house because it 'wasn't their fault' they have two 'homes' now.

It really helps for seperatred parents to have mediation anyway to help create ground rules to avoid these pitfalls and traps. So he doesn't create a rod for his own back (he's teaching his daughter to equate how much he loves her with how many presents he buys) and you don't build up to a fever pitch level of resentment in the future.

I could be way off base though - you know him and the situation best - so ignore if you like :D

[CecilyP]

Ex suggested one of us make the decision now, and the other one will make the next one. Is it me, or is that crazy? If I make this decision, I won't stop caring about subsequent decisions.

It's not just you. It could definitely cause problems later on.

There can't be any 'strategies' to find a compromise because it is not a situation where a compromise can be made - either you get your own way or he does - there is no possibilty of a compromise so talking about strategies is ridiculous.

I must say that your ex sounds very intransigent to me. You seem to be making all the effort; making the lists, finding out more about the background - then he comes along and rubbishes all these efforts.

[NaturalBaby]

Well your version of events seems very reasonable - look at both schools and try to work out which one will suit you all best. His version of events seems to be the complete opposite!
Tell him if he can't accept your points and look at both schools fairly then you'll choose the one that suits you as the parent who will be doing the school run - unless he wants to move house to do the school run himself. It doesn't sound like he's put across any points to convince you that his choice is the better school.

What is his preferred method for making decisions? Gut feeling? This is about his daughter, not him.

[Ladymuck]

OP, if I read this right, neither school A or B is your catchment school (which I presume is your 3rd choice C?). And that if given a choice between A and C you would prefer A?
Also, I suspect that the admission for school A isn't simply on the basis of distance from school, but for all the children who apply living within a certain (largish) distance, a random lottery is held. I usually find talking to the school secretary useful as they often know how many siblings come on the school run etc. I know of one school local to me where there were over 20 siblings for a one form entry, so non-siblings didn't have much chance. You may discover from your discussion with the secretary how many non sibling places will be available which again may help you decide your realistic chances of a place. I would also be phoning the school B secretary to see what the sibling numbers look like. If I am right in concluding that there is a random allocation/lottery, this does of course give your dh his letout with his boss - you applied, but didn't get ranked high enough...
Again if you were to visit your council offices you could see the maps done for school B in terms of school admissions each year, and this would give you a good idea as to how often you would get an offer or not.

[RummidgeGeneral]

You are going to be doing this journey to school for Seven Years. It needs to fit in with your life and not add to your morning and afternoon stress. You should be able to choose here.

[UnbridledPositivity]

We've been separated for over 2 years - I found out about something awful he did, so had no choice but to request he move out immediately. He still thinks I did that only to punish him.

GateGipsy - thanks for those insights, that is quite useful. He'd never admit it if he feels insecure about anything or is worried about missing out. Instead he criticises me and turns into a bully. I understand that he might be trying to cling on to some involvement in DD's life, but I have always made it easy for him. But when I told him that of course I'd make sure he'd get letters etc from school by either telling them his address or passing them on myself, he immediately got angry and said that if I didn't do that, I'd be acting unlawfully. Erm... it wouldn't be unlawful, he could tell them our circumstances/his address by his bloody self in the first place, and it's then up to the school to keep him informed. And that was how he reacted when I was trying to placate/reassure him!! So yes, he's probably very anxious about being pushed out (with no reason), but the problem is that he turns this into aggression. So he can't let go of the school decision.

CecilyP - I absolutely agree, there can't really be any compromise. He wants to create a compromise by working out a 'fair' strategy. He says there is no reason why my school choice/opinion is more valid than his.Intransigent is what he is - absolutely.

NaturalBaby/Rummidge - I'm not really sure what his preferred method for making decisions would be, at the moment it seems to be working out what's most 'fair'. So is it common for the school-run parent to make the decision? It kind of makes sense, but if the best school was on the other side of the city or whatever, I'd be fine with that to ensure DD goes to a good school. But yes, 7 years is a long time to feel uncomfortable with DD's school environment...

Ladymuck - that is a good point about secretaries knowing best. You're right, neither is our catchment school. The don't have a lottery, but rather prioritise children by whether they are in care, have special needs, sibling etc, and then they look at distance. Tbh, even if there is only a minute chance DD might get a place at school A, I wouldn't want to risk putting it as her 1st choice.

[Ladymuck]

Ok, well I've clearly guessed incorrectly as to which school A is! You can't be in Norwich then!

As prh and admission have made clear you need to think about your likelihood into getting into each of A and B, and what happens re waiting lists for each, if your objective is to get into either A or B ahead of C. If you would in fact prefer C to A then that is different from how I read the op. if you have a slim chance at either A or B, then how waiting lists work may make a difference to which is easier to eventually secure a place at. My concern is of course that you are arguing over something that may not be possible to achieve anyway.

Good luck in working out a solution!

[UnbridledPositivity]

No, not Norwich... How would you say that one compares to how I've described school A here?

My preference is B A C.

[UnbridledPositivity]

Definitely arguing about something which only has a small chance of actually happening! Such is the nature of separated parenting, at least in our case.

[Ladymuck]

The Norwich Free School has a PAN of 24 with the same categories of priority except in the event of over subscription then the places are allocated randomly. But it is hugely oversubscribed so your chances of getting a place as a non sibling are very small, and I assume that there is no chance of getting in from the waiting list, though it is not clear what that is based on. I jumped to the conclusion it was Norwich because I seem to recall it is based in offices. As a school they gave out KS1 sat results so you could see whether your chosen schools do that? I wouldn't be jumping to get into Norwich Free School on the basis of its SAT results but obviously the school is setting itself up as every working parents dream (and as one of many working mothers who finally had to throw inthe towel once my youngest started school, I can appreciate that).

The school you are most likely to get is C. I would take up prh or admission's offer to make sure that you are maximising your chances of getting one of A or B in preference to C, which I would suggest means knowing exactly how the waitlists work for A and B (as you are most likely to be offered C in the first round).

[Ladymuck]

And at the risk of over-emphasis, the information of numbers of applicants in recent years, the distance from the school for the last pupil admitted each year in both first round and final offers, and how the wait lists operate should be freely available to you, if not on the council website, certainly with a quick phonecall. If practically there is no chance in getting into school B then you need to consider how much stress this is all worth.

[UnbridledPositivity]

Well, that's the thing, by now we have been arguing about it so much that I don't really want to back down, and there might be a tiny chance that DD might get a place. And surely if B is our 1st choice, she'd be more likely to get a place there than if we had it as our 2nd choice?

Our free school aims to cater to working parents too - it's great, and very necessary for some families, but ours seems to lack a specific educational aim, and that's one of the reasons it's not my 1st choice.

[prh47bridge]

As both Admission and I have already explained putting B as your 2nd choice makes absolutely no difference to the likelihood of your daughter getting a place there. Everyone who names the school as one of their preferences is treated equally regardless of whether it is their first choice or last choice. The order of your preferences only comes into play if your daughter gets a place at more than one school. In that case you will only be offered the place at the higher preference.

So, to make it simple, if you put A as your first choice and don't get in there you will have exactly the same chance of getting a place at B as if you had made B your first choice.

Not wanting to back down is human but, with only 11 days to go, is likely to lead to the dispute ending up in court which will cost money and could lead to the LA treating your application as late. If that happens you will have no realistic chance of getting in to either school.

If your chances of getting a place at school A are minimal I would put it as first choice and put B as second choice. Just to emphasise again, your chances of getting into B will not be affected. It is illegal for schools to give priority to children just because the parents name the school as their first preference.

[UnbridledPositivity]

I understand that, thanks for explanation!

As Ex's boss is head of governors, and governors decide admissions at school A, I'm worried that he might pull some strings to get DD a place though. (Of course this would probably break several rules and be extremely unethical, but I wouldn't put it past them...)

[admission]

If the school is their own admission authority, then a committee of the governing body is responsible for taking all the applications received and putting them in correct order according to the admission criteria of the school. From what you have said previously it is going to come down to distance criteria and any attempt to some how put your application higher than is actually the case is going to stand out like a sore thumb, especially as it is the Local Authority who will be supplying the distance information to the school.
When the committee has agreed the order, the list is sent back to the LA in the correct order, who then decide who can be offered the places that are available. You might assume that if they can admit 30, that the first 30 on the list would be those that get offered the places but that is not necessarily the case. If they all put down the school as first preference then yes they will get the places, but five of those could be third preferences and have be offered a place at one of their higher preference, so numbers 31 to 35 on the list will then be assessed to see whether they can be offered a place etc. It is not so straight forward as you might think.
You need to make a decision here, you are running out of time and to miss the deadline because you can't agree is simply unacceptable and would show that this argument has nothing to do with what is best for your child and everything to do with two people trying to score points of each other.

[UnbridledPositivity]

Oh, we will not miss the deadline, that would indeed be unacceptable. I am not trying to score points, I'm just trying to keep in mind what I find important for DD's education, and being taught that she is better than others is not on my list!

And when I think about doing the nursery run, doing the nursery admin (i.e. finding it, applying for a place, dealing with the paperwork), doing DD's washing, building up relationships with her friends' parents and the nursery staff, deciding on and organising activities/which groups we go to ... is it fair that Ex can now randomly decide that although he wasn't bothered about nursery, he wants to throw his weight around when it comes to schools?

Thanks for the further explanation!

[GateGipsy]

If it goes to court then that's the sort of thing the family judge will take into consideration if it is presented correctly. But do you want this to go to court?

It isn't the judge you want to view this fairly but you ex, and is that likely to happen?

When my friend's cases went to court, it came down to the fact that she was primarily responsible for the school run, and would not be able to do this with the school her ex wanted. As both schools had good ofsted reports the judge was not impressed with her ex's claim that she was ruining their son's educational chances by choosing the other school as he had nothing to substantiate this other than a higher level of english as a second language at the other school.

You've got to do what you think is the best possible educational choice for your daughter, not on the basis of which parent knows the teachers, other parents better. Take out all your own personal aspects, apart from whether or not it is physically possible to get your child to and from School A (for my friend this wasn't possible, there was no after school club and the only after school facility required parents to arrange their own transport from the school to the facility!).

[UnbridledPositivity]

I do think school B would provide the more rounded education.

I don't want this to go to court, neither does Ex. He has a 'thing' about everything being fair.