small school under 50 pupils vs 'big' 170 pupils both village locations.

[fourlittleangels]

The small one has 3classrooms mixed year classes, intakes tarry between 5-10 (no busy years)plenty of outdoor space but not much extra curricular activity.
In terms of computers etc there is around 5 per room.
Smart boards etc

170 one has one form classes average class size 22-26 but 30 is year 6. Again lots of outdoor space but utilized with lots of extra curricular. Lots of computers equipment etc.

My original view was small class sizes overall anything else...like facilities, technology etc. Now I'm not so sure.

Teachers opinions would be greatly appreciated.

[teacherwith2kids]

Four, The budgets can change quickly and with very little warning - there was simply an announcement that there were schools due to lose 26% or more of their funding from 1 year to the next (has been temporarily stabilised but unlikely to be able to do that in the longer term).

[fourlittleangels]

Thank you teacher I feel like there are pros and cons to both options...knowing which is the 'right' one feels impossible.

[admission]

What most parents do not appreciate is the restrictions that such small schools as 50 pupils work under, because of the lack of finance.
In April 2013 a new funding scheme comes into being for all schools in England. Whilst there are minor local abilities to alter things slightly the bottom line is that small schools generally will be worse off, as will schools with high levels of SEN pupils.
I would suggest that your school with 50 pupils and 3 classes, will have no option come September 2013 to move to two classes only and even then the head teacher will have a significant teaching commitment. I suspect that fairly shortly the school will be talking about federation with other schools, such that there is a headteacher over a number of schools, not individual schools or considering closure of the school.
As such I think that under these circumstances I would go for the one form entry school, because quite frankly that could be where you kid is in a few years whether you like to or not.

[TalkinPeace2]

Middle ability child will do best in smaller school

High or Low ability child will do best in bigger school with more resources

and check feeder schools

[SundaeGirl]

My DS is at a tiny school (19 pupils!) and it is amazing. Really astonishing and we are incredibly lucky.

Obviously, this is down to the Headteacher and also partly the catchment area - nice ambitious families. The whole thing is really fun for the children a like being in a big family environment where they all learn at their own pace.

[fourlittleangels]

admission Are you a teacher? I just wonder where you have got the info from as i have been searching online with no luck.

I have an appt with my dc's current head and plan to ask or try to get some honest information on the future of the school, without ruffling any feather.
Any tips would be appreciated?

Also i am interested to know how the changes withh effect the bigger schools i have been looking at the one with 170 already federated...is it likely to just get bigger over time and is it possible for a head to run to schools and maintain such high standards??

Or the other school in mind is already at 200 but not federated..can it continue to be inependant?

[fourlittleangels]

sundaeGirl are you not concerned about closure?

[SundaeGirl]

No, closure unlikely. The council closed a local village school a few miles away then the same year gave permission for lots of family houses. Now the children in that village (lots of children) have to get bussed to the local town. It hasn't been popular. There are plans afoot for more houses on the other side of the catchment area so I think we are safe as the council got so much grief they'll think twice before making that mistake again.

As with all schools, it does depend on the head. But, really, I would encourage you to give it a go - it is fantastic to be so near by as well. If you are an intelligent, imaginative parent then things that might be drawbacks (e.g.not enough children for full rugby match) can be met outside school.

The pupil/staff ratio is - obviously - brilliant and it is comforting to know that all the staff from the dinner lady to school secretary know DS properly well.

Maybe it wouldn't suit everyone but the gentleness of this school (nowhere to hide so everyone is nice) has been fantastic.

[teacherwith2kids]

Sundae,

Have you checked the effect of the new funding formula on your school? I know that a 40ish pupil school in a county nearby has had its funding cut by 36%, and basically the funding cut for 2013 onwards is proportional to size, so a 19 pupils school would be hit even harder.

Locally, as I say, action has been taken to 'cap' the funding change for at least a year - so the gainers have gained less, but the losers have also lost less for next year so that there is time to make transitional arrangements - but everything is up in the air again within a couple of years.

It may not be popular - but if the central funding formula doesn't give the council enough money, then they can't pass it on to the school, and them academisation, closure or federation become the only options.

[teacherwith2kids]

(Actually, Googling 'funding 2013 small schools [county name]' reveals different responses by county to the new funding arrangements. In one county relatively local to me, small scgools have been very badly hit, as I have described above. In another, funding of small schools has been maintained but at the expense of medium-sized schools - 250+. Definitely worth an intelligent Google around your own area.)

[fourlittleangels]

Thank you, ive had a skim through, although i dont really understand alot of it or struggled to find direct information realted to the 'small' schools.

Is there any hope of schools staying at least small ish...makes me feel a bit
:( esp as we moved here for the small school :(

[QOD]

Bigger of the 2
My dd went to a one form intake 210 pupil school and I wish I'd gone bigger.

[teacherwith2kids]

Four,

Again, in the county I know best, 100 pupils [PAN of 20, as it is an area with First Schools] seems to be something of a 'magic' number for schools in terms of being affected by current funding plans. So still not very big.

[fourlittleangels]

teacher sorry what does [PAN of 20]
Mean?

The DCs current school is a C of E Aided..does that make much difference?

The direct information I have been given is that the funding reform will not effect them much and that they have always had three classes and intend to keep it that way.

They did also say that their optimum numbers ideally need to be 50-60 max to maintain their current way of schooling. But with an amazingly successful feeder pre school they seems more likely the previously, as they have another 9 due to join in Sept.

They have no plans to federate but may go down the joint academy route...

Couldn't tell me much more, I just have to hope it's all as honest as poss. Atm they see no risk of closure.

Does this all sound quite plausible?

[Leafmould]

Pan stands for planned admission number: ie the amount of kids they plan to admit to reception class that year.

[fourlittleangels]

Thank you for that, makes sense now.

Does the information above, that I was given today sound plausible?

[stargirl1701]

As a teacher, I would prefer the bigger school. Bigger budget, more resources, more friendships groups, different teacher every year and more than 1 staff toilet. (Last one not so relevant for your dc)

[fourlittleangels]

stargirl is that from a teaching point of view. Or what you feel is most beneficial to the child's development end education?

[fourlittleangels]

And education!

[admission]

Fourlittleangels, no I am not a teacher, I am a governor at two schools and also on the schools forum for the Local Authority. This is the committee that looks at all issues to do with funding within a Local Authority.
The type of school as a CoE aided makes no difference to the funding they get to run the school, however when it comes to capital projects for buildings etc they have to find 10% of the cost.
If as a school of 50 pupils they think that the funding reforms will not affect them, then they are either in a very small minority of schools who could be in this position or they do not know understand the ramifications of what is happening. For a school of 50 to have three classes I would be really interested in seeing their budget. There is no way that a primary school with anything from 50 to 500 pupils could normally afford to have classes averaging 17 in the class.
Federation is where schools join together to get economies of scale, so they will probably have one executive head over a number of schools etc. Joint academy could mean anything to be honest but in the context of a CoE school possibly means that they may join with other CofE schools in the area.
I am somewhat fascinated by this school, would you PM wit their name an LA as I would be interested in trying to find out what their budget is for the year and how they can afford these small classes.

[rotavirusrita]

I'm going to stick up for small schools.
There are 50 at my childrens school ( yrs R to 4)
smallest year is 4 pupils and largest is 15. Currently there is a year R and 1 class, 2 and 3 class and a separate yr 4 class.
They are doing really well. There is a real family feel. Teachers know exactly how each child is doing/ what their current goals are. More importantly the children are confident and nuturing towards each other. I have very shy academically average boys. They would have been eaten alive/ gone in the background at a big school. There are real links with the local community with older members of the village helping out with reading, in assembilies and so on.

As for extracurricular activities. Well we are one of the few local schools ( some are much bigger) who put on A B and C mixed sex football teams in the local league due to the support of 5 or 6 Dads and Mums who run the Saturday morning team. There are Brass, Violin or recorder lessons for those who want them. Plus an afterschool club, zumba, rugby and knitting clubs! You might get more things at a big school but just because its a small school doesnt mean there cant be really exciting things going on!

I really wouldnt change a thing.

[SundaeGirl]

Rita, I'm so glad you posted. We have such a brilliant little school, exactly as you describe, and as there's so few people at little schools there aren't that many parents to stick up for them!

OP, do you know parents at the little school that you can talk to? Maybe be cautious asking friends what they think of composite teaching/small school because I noticed quite a, hmm, strong reaction in some friends who didn't have that option and whose children were going into classes of 35...

[rotavirusrita]

thank you Sundae.

Op, I've had a proper read through and knowing that the little school is walking distance would swing it even more for me. Do meet the teachers/ headteacher though- I think you'll know very quickly whether its the right fit for you.

People always say that small school are due to close iminently due to funding issues..... the thing it then becomes a self fufilling prophecy as parents dont use their local school and so numbers fall and then it has to shut!.

As far as I know there are no plans to shut our small school.... I hope not as DS3 isnt due to start for 18 months! However a clever headteacher can use their budget very wisely. PLus there are ways around funding cuts ( federation etc). I always think that even if the school was to close tomorrow and they had to go to a differnet school my children have had a few yrs at a great school..... which is surely a good thing!

[twooter]

My dc go to s small school - currently 30 pupils over 2 classes. I have at times wished I'd sent them to the bigger school, about 4 miles away.

My thoughts are:

My dc get far more opportunity to do netball/football, as if you want to play, you're in the team. There's a league for the little schools, that the bigger school isn't included in, so our kids do far more school netball or football.

There is a real family feel to the school. Just seeing them hanging around together - no boy/girl segregation, they just play with who they like.

Lovely walking to school, and knowing if a child is sick there will be someone who will take them with theirs.

All the dc in the school get decent parts in school play.

Lots of trips

Very sociable for the parents

Cons

No after school or breakfast clubs, so need separate childcare. For this reason their are a lot of sahm, as not much other childcare availability.

Small friendship groups. May not be a problem, unless you have bitchy/manipulative children in the school.

They are more likely to outsiders if go to other clubs.

Fewer teachers, so if one is bad, the dc are stuck with them a lot longer.

[fourlittleangels]

Thank you admission I will pm you when not on my phone.

Although worried about outing myself incase you live round the corner or something ;)