Move for state school or stay and pay?

[downpipe]

DS1 starts school in 2 years.I live in a lovely house in a deprived area where the local schools are not great(70% free school meals,Ofsteds not good).The schools I would choose are in a different area 2miles away where I go to playgroups and have friends with children the same age.We won't get in from here.We can move house to something a bit smaller in the better area and would almost certainly get into the school I like or we could just about afford private school fees and stay where we are.But is private primary school worth the money when the state primary school of my choice is outstanding?Would the school local to me now actually be that bad and does it matter when you are 4 or 5?Should I move?Should I pay? Or should I just take a risk with the school on my doorstep and save money?Anyone been in this position and what are your views?

[jugglingwiththreeshoes]

My daughter goes to a school with quite a few privileged children ( though granted not private) and she still has her feet firmly on the ground. She was pleased to find a birthday voucher whilst tidying her bedroom the other day so that she could order her brother a couple of things for his birthday on Amazon.
OK, invalid argument, I just got an angel !

[Pantone]

I am sorry to be the one that says this, but private school is about more than being able to afford the school fees (which by the way normally double once your child reaches year 3-6). Your child will be in a class with lots of very privileged children and believe me, this makes a difference. I am not suggesting that the other children will be snobbish about where you live, but some of the parents possibly could be. And the children your child mixes with will have ponies, amazing holidays and lots of advantages which CAN make SOME children (and parents!) feel inadequate. It really is worth thinking about the social factor...and don't do it if you can't afford it all the way through, because believe me, once you have sent your children to a good private school, you will NOT want to take them out!

[javo]

Perhaps my experience was extreme - we lived in a v.deprived Inner London Borough and the school had a strange system with the older half of the year started in September and the younger half in January (so 7 children left). OP ask the school -sometimes the office will tell you as part of a general conversation over the phone or if you visit and the Local Authority have commented to me on it when I was looking for a new school in the context of a conversation about availability of places (rather than asking outright). If you can talk to parents of older children locally they can be good sources of info.

Waiting lists - these are risky, but usually every year some children do not turn up to take their place in most years and the LA reallocates them after 4-6 weeks. This sometimes doesn't happen for reception of popular schools and you have to wait until a family moves - but check your local criteria with the LA. Where I live now new (moving in)families are given priority over those already on the waiting lists. The families I knew who got places in new schools phoned the LA a lot and lobbied hard to get moved. The places left vacant at DD's school were always filled again - not sure if there would have been a problem if it was undersubcribed.

[yellowsubmarine41]

jabo description of fluidity within a school is extreme. Even schools with high pupil mobility rates don't lose half a class within a term - maybe over the whole 7 years.

Movement about mobility can be gained from the school and other local parents. Ofted reports sometimes make reference to it too.

However, this info may be out of date. Our local school used to have high mobility. It has slowed down considerably in the last couple of years, due to a static housing market and people being in temporary accommodation for years rather than months as used to be the case.

The local secondary schools will be a factor - if they're good, people hang around longer than otherwise.

[Malcontentinthemiddle]

urg, move! What if they have to sit near a free dinners kid? Get out get out get out....

[EssW2]

I would move properly. The benefits of being able to walk to school, live very close to friends and friends families and be part of a community are very valuable and one of the main reasons I wouldn't send a child to a distant Independent.

If the school has a good ofsted, a good 'value added' score, I would never shy from 'deprivation'. Yes, the stats on achievement show that economic deprivation correlate with low scores, but that doesn't mean that a child from a motivated, educationally confident family will adopt the average score of other children in the class! Socially it would be a factor for me if every other child in the class shared a language which my child did not speak, but the average attainment in the school is totally irrelevant to the potential for the individual child if the teaching is good.

Colditz - yes, it seems the prevalent attitude, sadly.

[downpipe]

rag doll is that why you changed schools and moved, because of the friends, or were there other reasons?Was private prep a waste of money?

[MumblingRagDoll]

Your son won't have local friends if you stay where you are and send him t private. I did this..my DD has no mates locally at all.

We have just moved to an outstanding state school in the next village...wish we had just moved in the first place!

[downpipe]

Thanks Javo, where do I get the info about fluidity?Also, is it easy to move schools via the waiting list in your experience if you don't get into the first choice on initial application?Your DDs 1st school sounds like a nightmare with the fighting mums etc but totally realistic for my local school (police in there recently too for pupils breaking in with petrol & matches...)

[javo]

OP check how fluid the year groups are at the local schools. All the local families at my DD's playgroup said they would apply for the school to support the local community and there was quite a hard sell to encourage others. Many did apply, but unbeknown to me had also put down more popular schools as 1st choice and let their kids start the local school whilst appealing and lobbying for elsewhere and moving as soon as places were available. Some parents went private after the first half term, some moved and others had "secretly" rented in better cachement areas or used granny and childminder addressess - some even "bought" the use of an address. Half of reception had left and been replaced by Xmas and it was disruptive. having a new head who was "not a patch" on the old one according to parents of older kids was also bad.

Some schools in deprived areas are fantastic! and get great results and ofsteds and seem to be able to look after everyone's needs but others .... reserach carefully.

[CaptainNancy]

no I bloody well wouldn't! You are misconstruing my post; I said these are the statistical facts, not causal indicators.
I attended a school that was 95% FSM- I was the only child in my class not on FSM- and 50%Bangladeshi.
However only 5% of us in my year got 5 A-C GCSEs.

FSM are there to try and alleviate the poverty some children live in- in my LA the money is used not just strictly for hot lunches, but also to provide a good breakfast where necessary, and also to prevent some children missing school because their parents could not afford to pay for their lunch.

I live in an inner city LA, which has FSM (and poverty) levels far in excess of average. There are many schools with high FSM here that are outstanding and provide an excellent education to all their pupils, and there are others that do not.

It is sad, but true that the selective grammar schools here have v v low levels of FSM eligibility, far below national, let alone LA average.

[colditz]

So would you keep your children away from Bangladeshi children too? As their mean scores are, as you say, lower?

[CaptainNancy]

colditz >>but the correlation between poverty and low academic results is mostly that people who have low academic results don't earn very much. If anything, being poor would inspire you to work harder, for fear of getting even poorer.

While this may be the case, I am referring to the correlation between children's results in end of key stage assessment and their FSM status- the mean scores of children on FSM is lower than that of children not on FSM, just as the mean score for children of Bangladeshi origin is lower than that of children of Chinese origin, and the mean score of boys is lower than that of girls.

I am not describing a causal link, just stating the observed facts. Of course you're right- attending a school with high %age of children receiving FSM will not make your child perform below average, however if staff time is taken up by addressing the social needs of many children living in poverty there is less time available for teaching, and the fear is that your child whilst still doing well academically (because let's face it you would be supporting their learning at home too) may achieve below their potential. Yes- I know that children on FSM can also be supported in their learning at home, those in receipt of FSM are more likely to live in substandard, over-crowded, possibly temporary accommodation, and suffer from associated ill physical or mental health, problem neighbours keeping young children awake in the evening, no space in the home to do their homework etc etc.

[javo]

OP - I would move. I sent DD1 to our local primary- similar level of FSM etc to yours but a slightly better ofsted, as I was a bleeding heart liberal. It was a disaster (this is a small selection of the horror)- she spent most of reception year "helping" other children with their work and English, colouring in pictures and watching disney movies.Her needs were not addressed and she was bored although she did make friends - but the mums didn't do playdates etc or mix outside of school . The police were called to a hideous fight between two mothers and I was called 3 times during the year to take DD to casualty after playground "incidents". The school assured us things would improve in Year 1 - but at parents evening in October the teacher told us "she couldn't tell us much about DD but she was a relief to have in the class as she did her work and was quiet". We left. Best decision ever.

Go and see the school though they may have better and more motivated staff than our local primary, but if your Dc needs any extra help there may be many more in the queue before him. We too moved to a much smaller property in a nicer area after HEding for a while - my DC2 was given extra reading help and some phonics training by a reading specialist in year 1 there is no way he would have got any help in the other school.

[Oggy]

Only contribution I can make is to reiterate what other posters have said about not going purely on Ofsted ratings. Things can change quickly, but more importantly, what's right for one child isn't right for another.

We have 3 local schools that I looked at. All "good" Ofsted reports, all wildly different, moreso than you could ever understand from Ofsted reports alone.

We chose the school we went for in the end based on size more than anything else.

[downpipe]

cecilyp there is a strong sense of community where I live due to an ongoing project and we have got to know nearly all the families in the houses nearby. 1 family have sent the kids to the local school.The others have gone private,or got into the schools in better areas further away when the rules were different.I think they thought "have my cake and eat it" as they were able to have the big house AND the nice school but admissions rules have changed since then and these houses take ages to sell as a result as families are attracted to better areas.There are 5 or 6 families with children the same age and we are all worried about the schools thing.I'm glad to hear your comments about the influence of parents though and the friends children choose, it is quite reassuring and the kind of thing I wanted to know.I suppose if we all stay here and all go local it may improve things...

[CecilyP]

OP, are you the only family living in a lovely house in an otherwise deprived area? Or are there other families, just like yours, that you don't know about because your friends and playgroups are some distance away? Other families who will also not get into your desired school because they do not live near enough. Do you perhaps just notice the rougher looking parents at the local school gates because they stand out more, whilst totally missing the more average mums.

If your local school's result aren't that great, it is hardly surprising if all the more aspirational families move away. If your children are reasonably bright, there is no reason why they shouldn't do well at the local school. Strangely enough, even some children from low income families do well at school. Often, gaps in atainment become more apparent at secondary level where parental encouragement becomes all the more important. One thing I really wouldn't worry about is your children getting in with a bad crowd. You would be surprised by the extent that children gravitate towards like-minded friends.

If you really can't face the local school for your children, I would recommend moving rather than private school. You have friends near your desired school and you like the area. Saving the annual fees for 2 children should enable you to increase your mortgage considerably.

[downpipe]

Sheldon it was the headmaster himself of the local school that pointed out to me when I looked round that they had very few children from professional families at that school.He is proud of the school but also was upfront about it's limitations based on the catchment area.There just really aren't many families around here that have professional parents..there are lots of hostels, student flats and council blocks

[jugglingwiththreeshoes]

I'd probably move before considering private education. Private ed seems very expensive to me (We couldn't afford it, though try to enhance their experiences in a variety of other ways)
If you move to a better area where you already have more friends you will probably enjoy many things about becoming more involved in that community.
I think the other children your children mix with are a very important part of their educational and social development.
Everyone's aspirations is one of the crucial factors I feel - and very much depends on the parent's own life experiences.

[downpipe]

colditz I'm asking this question myself, does it matter about the social class and the type of children your child mixes with at school so I don't know the answer.Obviously by paying I would indirectly be selecting them mixing with children from other families who can afford it.There is no doubt that the children at the local school are from poorer families than ours(and yes, it really is 70% free school meals). I'm wondering is whether it will make any difference at all to my sons' aspirations and achievements and whether they will be worse off for going there, or whether I need not worry.For what it's worth half my family are "poor",I happen not to be, and would like my sons to be able to be independent and successful in the future which is why I want to make the best choice that I can about their education.

[yellowsubmarine41]

OP does say that the school in the more affluent area is much nicer than her local schools. She seems to be saying that, in her view and that of Ofted, it's a better school.

However, I have met many people who's view of a 'nice' school is pretty much about who the other children are ie FSMs, ESOL, SN populations are undesirable, hence schools with significant proportions of these groups 'not nice'.

My dd starts on Monday at a school with high proportions of all these groups. I'm sure that she'll do absolutely fine.

[usualsuspect]

DS* sorry

[emmanumber3]

at St Custard's. Excellent name - I'd send my DCs there for sure .

[usualsuspect]

So you don't want your dd to mix with people who live in social housing ?

[emmanumber3]

I also meant to say that, as others have said, moving house will probably be cheaper in the long run than private school. Especially if you have more than one child.