Forgive me MN, for I have commited a cardinal sin - I allowed myself to get involved in a park-time chat about reports/NC levels

[FirstLeg]

...am now I am (a) slightly concerned and (b) slightly suspicious.

Friend A (who brought up the subject) said her DD had got a 4, and two 3A's in her report (can't remember what in), while friend B said her DD had all 3A's. Now, this at the end of year 3 - our DD's are 8 (although theirs are nearly 9 and mine just 8).

I thought DD was doing well with her 3C's, and her teacher has always been full of praise for her, said how bright and capable she is etc, but now am worried that actually, she is not actually doing that well, and the teacher is overstating her ability for some reason.

It did cross my mind that my friends were exaggerating, but I have no idea why them might (they are lovely people and not showy-offy types imo). Friend B did counter her DD's (slightly!) lower scores compared to Friend A, by saying her DS got 5C's at the end of year 5, which would seem ever more 'inflated'.

I know I shouldn't have got involved, and shouldn't worry, but you know how it is. I even said I couldn't remember what DD got . Stupid me for trying to be pro-active and arranging a catch up in the park before school starts... Boo!

[DeWe]

The problem with the expression "doing very well" that some teachers use it to mean "doing very well considering their ability". This means that they can mean they're achieving the best I could expect with a natural below average ability, whereas the parent can go away believing their child is a little genius. I have come across this from both sides.
I agree with the idea that giving some idea as to where they sit in ability (not necessarily class position) can be helpful but I think it need to be done very carefully and not made a labelling for life situation.

[Cortina]

Sadly IMO too many believe ability is fairly fixed. 2boys the problem is a child with a below average level at KS1 will not be one on track & expected to get a level 5 or level 6 at KS2 & smash all expectations in this sense. It may be perfectly possible but it's unlikely to be widely believed a child like this will have the inherent ability. All will want them to make progress but targets will be lower than those who ended KS1 with 3As for example. Studies have shown children can regress, plateau, stall etc and edge forward at different rates but schools look for steady progress forward or often assume there is a problem.

Children are not either low, middle or high ability, cognitive ability is not set in stone. You can get incrementally smarter but most believe intelligence is as fixed as hair or eye colour. A child that's seen as able early on is far more likely to do well later on IMO, as parents we all want our child to be believed in. There is no ceiling on ability and I think our system is flawed. The conversation with Matthew Syed a few months back here at Mumsnet was very interesting in this sense.

[2BoysTooLoud]

How depressing Cortina.

[mrz]

Cortina I know that is the problem you have experienced but some schools actually set challenging targets for all children and expect every child to make the most possible progress they can.
We had a boy arrive in mid Y4 writing at 1C (previous school assessment - he was W on his forst piece of writing with us) he has just achieved a level 4 in Y6 SATs.

[iggly2]

Well done to that boy mrz. I believe that children are often of similar abilitis ( so agree with Cortina) and that what they are currently interested in plays a more important part than is given credit for. Has the child started being interested in writing? To be fair having read some of your previous posts you seem a very inspiring and dedicated teacher.

[iggly2]

Sorry the "e" on my keyboard is dubious!

[mrz]

I should say I have never taught the boy and yes he was very interested in writing and extremely articulate

[2BoysTooLoud]

I think kids and writing can be a definite developmental thing I would hope that my articulate but slightly writing phobic and easily distracted ds would not be 'written off' by any teacher at age 6.
I also wonder if it is the'end of the world' not to do brilliantly at end of primary SATs.
I did fine at school in most subjects [maths excluded!] but did not hit the 'top' group until I was 12 - late developer. I am in my 40s so times have changed but I hope opportunities for 'movement' can occur right up to GCSE.

[mrz]

I think this child just hadn't been taught -
.how to form letters so others could actually read his work
.how to spell
.how to punctuate
.how to structure his writing so it made sense
.how to write for the reader
.how his speaking voice and writing voice are different

[forehead]

I agree with Cortina, teachers may give parents

the impression that grouping is fluid, however i don't believe this to be true. It annoys me that children are labelled as failures at such an early age and unless a child has very determined parents, who 'challenge' the schools, it is likely that a child in the lower sets will remain in the thiis set , despite the fact that they have improved significantly.
For this reason, my dsis has decided to enrol my dneph in prep school .

[AChickenCalledKorma]

Interesting, forehead. Because my children are at the local state school, where grouping is most definitely fluid. Whereas DD's friend is at the local prep school, where she has been streamed at the age of 7 and has no hope of ever joining the "A-stream", having been allocated to the "B-stream". And everyone, but everyone, knows which stream is which.

I guess it depends on the school and how well they structure expectations around individual children.

[iggly2]

Ds is at private primary and they do not believe in streaming.

[AChickenCalledKorma]

As I said, it depends on the school.

[2BoysTooLoud]

I only have primary and younger children but it seems to me that among [some] parents that there is an obsession about being 'top of the class' at a very young age. Really wonder if this is a relatively 'new' thing. I guess a lot SATs related and year 2 and 6 related. It seems thoroughly unhealthy to me on many levels.
Firstly kids become formally aware of a pecking order at a young age [my ds told by some 'charmers' he was not clever cos not in their group -little shits].
Secondly it galvanises competitive parent syndrome and hot housing [I make major efforts not to get SUCKED IN!].
Kids do develop at different rates and I would hope [like chickenCalledKorma and others] that if grouping it is fluid.
Streaming was bad enough at secondary school from my memory without obsessing about it at primary.
Of course we want the best for our kids but there is more to life at 4, 5, 6 etc than school and holiday work books.

[Cortina]

I think you're right 2boys. I think our current tracking system can lead to cognitive bias - low levels at the end of KS1 will mean the expectation isn't there for a level 5 or 6 at KS2. All will be looking for progress & agree That no one writes a child off at 6 but that's how it works. It was decreed in 2006 that secondary schools were failing 'bright' 11 year olds (who had achieved level 5s at KS2) if they didn't achieve As at GCSE and secondary heads should be held 'accountable' if this failed to happen - what about those level 4s? Fully agree that progress not always in a straight line & that late developers are no myth. I think our tracking system leads to notions of a fairly static 'top' 'middle' and 'bottom'. Read some threads on here or TES to see what I mean.

Today I met a Mum who has been prepping their child ahead of anticipated tasks next term. The letter/account about the holidays is now off pat, ambitious vocab, sentence structure etc all prepped, learnt and understood by the child. All of this creates an illusion of ability which with the same work over time 'becomes' ability. I believe what one child most can achieve but not sure the current system backs this up. I think it might be harder for a late developer to blossom later, I hope I'm wrong, I worry they won't 'believe' sufficiently.

[mrz]

low levels at the end of KS1 will mean the expectation isn't there for a level 5 or 6 at KS2. Cortina please remember level 5 or 6 is the expected level at age 14!
So a child entering secondary school is 3 years ahead of expectations
Teachers will be looking for every child to make the most progress possible at every stage. I know this hasn't been your experience and I'm not sure how the school has managed to survive without someone questioning their poor value added

[Cortina]

To be honest I think most children are capable of level 5s at 11. Our local non selective prep gets them there, creative, inspiring lessons and children get incrementally smarter (we're not there but I know the school very well). This might not be realistic when classes are large, resources stretched & support not given at home but IMO for most it's perfectly possible. Our issues seem to have been solved thanks to a great teacher this year with a different teaching style, approach & belief system (fortunately) but it's an area I'm interested in & 2boys raises some interesting questions.

[IndigoBell]

But your local non-selective prep is still very, very selective.

It can kick out any children with behaviour difficulties, or learning difficulties, or for any other reason it wants to.

It selects by ability to pay - which is hugely selective.

And it selects by people who not only can pay but believe education is worth paying for.

So their intake is nothing like the local state school.

Not all kids are capable of a L5 - even if all the kids at an independent school are. No way.

[Cortina]

Not all but more than many imagine, and certainly many are cognitively capable, there isn't a ceiling on their ability or a barcode that deems them level 4 material rather than 5. Those 'talented' level fivers are often just more practiced than some others IMO. Talent often equals hidden practice. The potential is there for many in other words IMO.

[IndigoBell]

Yes, kids who do more work and who practice more will normally get higher levels.

But what's stopping your state kids doing more work and more practice? Nothing. Some do extra work at home. Some don't.

The independent kids don't necessarily do more work during school hours.....

[strictlovingmum]

Cardinal sins:
Reading levels
End of year reports
These should not be discussed under no circumstances.
I think you answered appropriately, by saying I don't remember, teacher knows your child, and wouldn't praise her unduly.
You have nothing to worry about,

[Cortina]

Conversation on L6 in thread on this board interesting case in point. Your capable KS1 pupil that ended with a level 3 can now aim for a level 6 to 'show expected levels of progress'. A child that ended KS1 with a low level 2 may also be capable of a level 6 but 'expected levels of progress' will suggest he is not level 6 material. We are really saying, are we not, we believe the child with the lower level at KS1 to be less inherently bright?

Message some parents receive is to take steps to ensure their child is above average at KS1 as teachers will believe on some level they are brighter & 'expected levels of progress' going forward will suggest they are higher set material come secondary school or worthy of a Grammar school place etc. The child that starts ahead has an advantage?

[Cortina]

I believe dips, spurts, plateaus etc they all happen naturally when we learn but the system looks for each child to make roughly the same level of steady progress from their starting point. This might be limiting for some.

[mrz]

Cortina they have always been able to aim for a level 6 the change is that the test will be externally marked (and presumably reported in the league tables if we still have them)

[Cortina]

Good news.