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obstetrician who had a homebirth

35 replies

ClarityMa · 28/08/2011 14:38

Has any one read that new book The Heart in the Womb written by Dr Amali the obstetrician that had a homebirth? Its really inspirational. I didn't know what to expect but it is a real women-power book.

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ClarityMa · 02/09/2011 09:46

Forgot to mention that The Heart in the Womb has 200 references for those who want the facts about hospital birth versus homebirth.

The book is a great combination of the point of view of a mother, doctor and the wise woman brought up in both eastern and western traditions. Amali has written in easy to read language which is very refreshing.

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ClarityMa · 02/09/2011 09:23

If you read the book.......all the statistics about safety for mum and babe suggest that in straightforward pregnancies (not problematic pregnancies/ill mothers) the risk of death and damage to the baby is the same as hospital birth and the risk of death and damage to the mother is much less at home than in hospital.

If you read the other blogs around....you can see that homebirth can be a political issue for organisations such as the American College of Obstetricians, who hate homebirth and published a much lambasted and clearly flawed research paper last year to support their view....but when their figures were looked at by independent people all the figures did not add up correctly.

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spudulika · 01/09/2011 21:22

I'd kind of hope that when it comes to childbirth, ALL health professionals would temper the views they've arrived at through personal experience, with some regard for research evidence.

History is littered with examples of doctors recommending harmful treatments and protocols (routine episiotomy, routine use of forceps in the US in the 1930's, scopolamine births.... ugh) - particularly when it came to pregnancy and childbirth - with the utter conviction that they were benefiting women and babies through their use. That's why I think the movement towards evidence based practice is one of the great things about modern medicine. The evidence isn't always water tight, but it's a damn sight better than what we had in the past.


Extract from 'The Business of Being Born'
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LackingNicknameInspiration · 01/09/2011 20:48

The other way of looking at this is that midwives seem to be far more pro home births mainly because they know how many births are straightforward, surely? I had a homebirth with DD2 after much persuasion from midwife - was convinced when friend who'd had similar labour time to me with first delivered second in hospital car park....

My situation was a bit different though as I was due to give birth in local midwife-led unit - which has no back up facilities and would require transfer to a larger hospital in the event of any emergencies or even just wanting an epidural. My house is nearer the other hospital than the midwife unit - given that many places seem to think it's acceptable to deliver in a midwife led unit without full back up, I can't say I felt it was particularly irresponsible to opt for a homebirth.

Happy to say it all went well - I was lucky enough to have 2 midwives present for first birth (midwife led unit in different area, so full back up available), as one was recently qualified and awaiting her registration so couldn't practise alone - and two for the homebirth. Made a massive difference to me.

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willowstar · 01/09/2011 20:39

I can see where Straightalker is coming from. My former boss is a consultant paediatrician in paedicatric intensive care. she was very very very anti home births based on the poor outcomes she had had to deal with.

I had a hospital delivery for my first child and am due to give birth in January again. I think I will have a home birth this time. I have no real complaints about the care I had in hospital, I was lucky to have a midwife with me pretty much all of the time...though there were problems with the epidural and getting that sorted etc...I ended up with ventouse and episiotomy.

for me I feel that I laboured well and quickly at home and it all went a bit wrong when I got to hospital. Just little things like the birthing pool was cold (by my standards) and half full so I was freezing, puking and contracting all at the same time...and I just kept being polite to everyone all the time when I probably should have been a lot more
focussed. I think at home I'll be able to be myself more and hopefully deal with it all a bit better.

having said that I may change my mind, it isn't fixed yet. it could be down to the weather mind you, I hear we are in for a shocking winter!

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Cathpot · 01/09/2011 20:28

My very lovely Uncle who is an anaesthetist at a big children's hospital gave me a dressing down after the 2nd of my very easy, positive, safe, home birth's along the lines of straighttalker's point ie 'you took a risk you got away with it, lucky you- lots of kids I see end up eating through a tube for the rest of their life.' What I pointed out to him was that by asking for a home birth I had guareenteed a midwife was with me at the pointy end of labour for the entire time, and in fact at the end of my labour that 2 midwives were focussed on just me, for the entire time. Having had friends give birth in the 2 hospitals that would have been relevent for my births and had an awful time it was a pragmatic decision as much as an emotional one. I didnt get left on my own, I didnt get MRSA, both of which happened to friends.

Having said all this I recognise that the first home birth decision was driven more by an emotional need to be somewhere I was relaxed and comfortable- and he probably had more of a point. The second birth I felt I could make more informed decisions; I knew I would get better more consistant care at home and I was prepared to move quickly to hospital if it all started to go wrong.

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HyenaInPetticoats · 01/09/2011 20:20

I'm not sure they are separate issues. Many 'low-risk' women in hospital receive very little attention from HCPs, and are ignored when they ask for attention. These same women would receive more attention at home. Mostly, the difference is between a miserable and a happy birth experience, because the women in question are at low risk of complication in either setting, but sometimes - as in my case - a close focus from the HCP affects the chances of survival.

Though I agree that absolute terms aren't helpful in relation to birth risk - we're juggling too many variables.

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Northernlurkerr · 01/09/2011 20:11

I think we've got seperate issues here.

Straighttalker is right - women with PPH are safer in hospital than at home. However that doesn't mean home birth is dangerous.
Equally women are safer with a close focus from their HCP - but that doesn't mean hospital birth is dangerous.

You may improve your chances of one to one care with a home birth. You may also reduce your chances of surviving a pph. Neither of these are definate though and we should resist the temptation to talk about birth in such absolutes.

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EJCH · 01/09/2011 20:11

I read this thread with interest. I had a homebirth with DS in 2010 and it was a great choice for me, DS and DH. I waited until the very close to the end of my pregnancy to tell my Dad who is a retired obstetrician. He went absolutely spare at me, saying it was completely P, dangerous and unnecessary. So it was contrary to my own preference but I completely understood his reaction which was based on love and concern for me. If a birth goes well, the ob does a bit of paperwork and the MW do it all. It's only when things go wrong that the ob gets involved and my Dad had a lot of EMCS and very sad times to deal with. I completely understand straighttalker's attitude and it's important that we get choice on how we give birth - the hospital is a most reassuring atmosphere for the majority of women.

Pregnant with DC2 - Dad hasn't asked me about my birth plan yet :)

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HyenaInPetticoats · 01/09/2011 20:08

I agree that some risks would be less in hospital if women in hospital had the attention of their caregivers. I'm sure that by the time women with pphs get to straighttalker, they are safer than they would be in her absence. But I'm not alone in having a story about being ignored and scolded on a post-natal ward when I was developing a life-threatening complication. When I developed the same complication at home, I had a midwife who was watching me closely and reacted immediately and appropriately. That's why I'd have another hb knowing that I've had two very similar births immediately followed by major pphs requiring emergency intervention.

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spudulika · 01/09/2011 19:54

Whoops, sorry, just meant to add this, C+P'd from the Homebirth UK website:

"See the National Birthday Trust Fund study in the first instance, but numerous other studies have also found a reduced PPH rate in planned home births. Only 2% of the planned births at home in the NBTF study ended in a blood loss of 500mls or over, compared to 4% of the planned hospital births. Wiegers, Keirse et al (1996) found blood loss of over 1,000 ml was significantly more likely after planned hospital births than planned home births - about twice as likely for first-time mothers, and more than four times as likely for women who had given birth before.


The NBTF study found the PPH rate was higher in the mothers who planned home births, but transferred to hospital - 9%, compared to 2% for the births at home, and 4% for the planned hospital births. However, as far as PPH management is concerned, the fact that they had planned a home birth is irrelevant. They were in the hospital when their blood loss began, whether they transferred for induction of labour, or to have their labour speeded up, or for an epidural, or for an assisted delivery or caesarean."

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spudulika · 01/09/2011 19:51

"And those homebirths that are rushed into hospital for analgesia, foetal distress, etc that then become 'hospital statistics' for PPH, foetal hypoxic brain injury surely have probably clouded my judgement on normality."

straighttalker, can't comment about individual hospital statistics, but a couple of questions:

Do you feel that those women who book a homebirth are more likely to have a PPH than similar mothers birthing in hospital? And their babies are more likely to experience fetal distress? Because your post implies that you feel the inclusion of women transferring in from homebirths with these problems is inflating hospital figures.

Have you any evidence which you could share with us here which confirms that there are higher rates of serious complications for women birthing at home? And also poorer outcomes for babies?


Homebirths currently make up only about 2% of all births in the UK. Do you work in an area with a particularly high homebirth rate?

"In my current place of work, a birth which takes place in hospital (no matter the location of the majority of the labour) is classified a hospital birth."

My understanding is that current recommendations on place of birth are based on a number of studies none of which identified increased rates of mortality and morbidity associated with planned home birth. The largest of the studies was The National Birthday Trust study from 1994 which looked at the outcomes from 8000 births, based on place of booking, not place of birth. It found no evidence of poorer outcomes for either women or babies, and did find lower rates of fetal distress, instrumental delivery and emergency c/s.

Anyway, the findings of new and important research into outcomes associated with place of birth will be published this month I think and I'll be interested in what it says. I appreciate that there are methodological problems with all the current studies on homebirth because of the impossibility of randomising and that many are underpowered to identify rare poor outcomes. Never the less, there is clearly enough evidence for both the Royal College of Midwives and the RCOG to publish a recommendation that homebirth is 'safe' and 'has many benefits'.

You'd really have to ask yourself why two reputable bodies would make this recommendation if there was good evidence that home birth was clearly associated with poorer outcomes for either women or babies.

"However any professional in the know - obstetrician, anaesthetist, midwife, paediatrician - who exchanges a potentially uncomfortable traumatic 24-48 hours in the hospital for a homebirth is criminally misguided, and someone I'd like to meet to ask why on earth she would do that."

Quite a few midwives opt to have their babies at home. I assume for most, they've reviewed the evidence and made their decision as to what's best for themselves and their babies in light of it. The midwives I know are convinced that women birthing at home are less likely to need interventions in the birth, and no less likely to end up with a well baby.

Anyway, sorry I've yacked on a bit, but still would be interested in knowing about the homebirth rates in your area and whether you believe women having their babies at home are more at risk of a serious PPH.

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pinkytheshrinky · 01/09/2011 19:19

I have has three out of four babies born at home (the first was prem) and it was all well and good - another way of looking at it is that you have two midwives just solely there for you and your baby - much less chance of something going wrong.

I do think they make you aware of the risks when they book you but I can only say good things about it

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umf · 01/09/2011 19:13

I had an HB second time. It was much, much safer than the hospital where I had DS1. There were actual real live midwives, to start with.

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coffeeaddict · 01/09/2011 19:06

Brief trampoline hijack - I was very anti, having spoken to doctor friends, but have just installed one sunk right down into the ground and surrounded by a zip-up net. Also it is a brand called Springfree which has all the springs underneath, so no-one can catch their foot. Just wanted to put it out there... :)

I also know a private obstetrician who had a home birth or rather his wife did.

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Northernlurkerr · 01/09/2011 18:51

I don't think Straighttalker should be attacked for holding the opinion she does. She is speaking from her personal experience of seeing severly compromised women.
Anybody who has a homebirth thinking it will be safe because PPH etc just won't happen to them really would be kidding themselves. Women choosing homebirth should be doing so understanding the risks and rewards of both options and choosing accordingly. Nobody should be choosing either option in the belief that one is 'safe' and the other not.

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belgo · 01/09/2011 18:46

My GP and several midwives I know had a homebirth. I think it does help to have some medical knowledge of what is happening.

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usingapseudonym · 01/09/2011 18:45

I know several people who have worked in AnE won't let their children near trampolines! It's certainly made me wary of having one in the garden.

I'm thinking about a HBAC at the moment but still not 100% sure. 1 in 1000 have scar ruptures which really would be far safer in hospital (would be life threatening for mother and baby) BUT as said above - at home I would have proper 1-1 care, regular proper monitoring and more chance or a natural, healthy delivery. It's a minefield.

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msbuggywinkle · 01/09/2011 18:39

Thing is though, there are things that could go wrong in hospital that wouldn't happen at a home birth and things that could go wrong at home birth that wouldn't in hospital.

For example, my DD1 was born with an agpar of 0. In hospital. Because the midwives were not available and left us un-monitored alone for 4 hours. We tried to get hold of them, they didn't respond.

DD2, technically a more difficult birth (posterior brow presentation, unknown until she was crowning) born at home with no problems and an agpar of 8 because there was continuous one to one care.

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magicmelons · 01/09/2011 17:53

Lots of Midwives have homebirths. Having worked in A&E for many years i'm of the opinion that that you have to not think the worst or you would literally do nothing in life and you can't deal in worst case scenarios all of the time but can take calculated risks and the statistics for homebirth are pretty good. I know lots of Doctors who have had homebirths or their wives have.

I also know an orthopaedic consultant who won't let his daughter on/near a trampoline it depends what parts of your job you take on board.
Calling it criminally misguided is scaremongering and not based on the statistics but on your personal experience which of course given your job you see the worst of.

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4madboys · 01/09/2011 17:32

actually i dont think thats true, the bit about the figures then being included in the hospital birth statistics, from reading other threads on here i am sure it still goes down as home birth statistics.

am sure someone like spud will be along with the correct facts.

but from what i have read that is not right.

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HyenaInPetticoats · 01/09/2011 17:31

Straighttalker, I had two serious pphs, both a couple of hours after delivery, one in hospital, where I was scolded by a cleaner for getting blood on the floor and told to pull myself together by a midwife when I tried to stand up and collapsed, and went home finding it hard to breathe to be blue-lighted back in for a transfusion when I passed out at home, and one after a lovely homebirth, when my midwife saw me turn pale, took my bp and called an ambulance immediately. I lost less blood with the second, 45 mins from the nearest A and E. I was safer as well as happier at home.

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mrsravelstein · 01/09/2011 17:22

i apologise, i didn't mean it to sound aggressive, and i realise that as an anaesthetist it wouldn't necessarily impact. but if, for example, an obstetrician shared your view that a homebirth is 'criminally misguided' then i would expect that in general they would have a very interventionist attitude to my delivery, and for that reason i wouldn't want them anywhere near me.

and in fact one of the main reasons i chose a homebirth for attempted vbac 2nd time round, was because i wanted 1 to 1 monitoring by a midwife rather than being attached to electronic monitors etc which i believed would hamper my chances of a normal delivery. as it happens, i would have much preferred to be in hospital trying for a natural birth, but that simply wasn't an option the NHS was prepared to offer me.

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straighttalker · 01/09/2011 15:20

marthamay, it varies between hospital trusts and areas as to how this data is collated. The only people who will know are the hospital statisticians (maybe the midwives) for the area in which you are giving birth. In my current place of work, a birth which takes place in hospital (no matter the location of the majority of the labour) is classified a hospital birth.

I wouldn't be concerned, mrsravelstein. I'm a very safe and experienced anaesthetist. I don't see how my personal view (emphasise personal) that hospital is a safer place to give birth would colour my anaesthetic management of your birth in the unlikely event I would encounter you - which would, after all be taking place in hospital.

Criminally misguided is perhaps a bad choice of words on my point. You could never be prosecuted for taking a homebirth option - which a lot of women do, after all. It's just - when the consequences are what they are - I struggle to understand why people make the choice.

I don't have the answers and most people have pretty strong views on this subject anyway which I'm unlikely to affect but I just object to the point of view that most doctors - obs, anaes, etc - automatically reject homebirth because we're so medicalised we think everything needs to happen close to a doctor, and it will be disastrous otherwise.
I've seen very happy homebirths transferred in for repair of tears/removal of placenta, and these were ladies who had a very relaxed happy experience at home. I actually envy them. But I've also met the ambulance at the A&E ambulance bay and made the run to theatre with the ones that didn't go so well and they're a little more prominent in my mind.

Like I said, experience does inform future actions - I understand why a lot of mothers choose homebirth but I really really struggle to understand why any doctors do. The vast majority wouldn't - but anecdotally, as shown in this thread, there will be a few who do.

Not me. At least not on purpose :-)

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ciwi · 01/09/2011 15:00

If straighttalker kept me and my baby safe I really wouldn't care. I personally can't understand why anyone would risk a homebirth, it's just not worth it for mother or baby but then that is just my opinion and I think that people who do give birth at home are very brave.

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