UK education; what is the REAL problem?

[Isitmebut]

First of all let us first establish that there is a problem, despite a huge investment by the State that more than doubled the education budget from 1997 and borrowed huge amounts of money on ‘the never, never’, to build/improve schools via he Private Finance Initiative (PFI), that will annually eat into the Education budget for decades to come.

“England’s young adults trail the world in literacy and maths”.
www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-24433320

"Young adults in England have scored among the lowest results in the industrialised world in international literacy and numeracy tests.

A major study by the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development (OECD) shows how England's 16 to 24-year-olds are falling behind their Asian and European counterparts".

England is 22nd for literacy and 21st for numeracy out of 24 countries.


And just to confirm that our school leavers international test results are not a statistical quirk, and that they are indeed NOT ready to go out in the world to make their mark, for year after year the CBI (and even supermarkets) having been pleading with the government to ensure that our children leave full time education, fit for employment purpose.

“More than four in 10 employers are being forced to provide remedial training in English, maths and IT amid concerns teenagers are leaving school lacking basic skills, it emerged today.”
www.telegraph.co.uk/education/educationnews/9322525/School-leavers-unable-to-function-in-the-workplace.html


Now while I kind of understood the pro EU Labour’s motives in relaxing the teaching of foreign languages, as it both boosted school leave tables and their objective was to boost inward economic migration, not give our children opportunities to work abroad – but how can we allow millions of children, go out to a world needing an ever more semi skilled and skilled workforce, without even the basics in English and Maths?


The Unemployment figures of under 24 year olds from 2004 on highlight two major points; using the May to July quarters in each year, we can see that in 2004 we already had 580,000 under 24’s unemployed. But during what we was told was an economic boom, by the pre crash 2007 high, that figure had reached 711,000 – and by the 2010 general election, a few years into the recession, Labour passed over to the coalition 921,000 under 24-year olds unemployed – a national scandal.


And by putting the CBI reports, employer anecdotal reports on migrant education skills/motivation, and the international literacy and numeracy league table evidence TOGETHER, we have a failed a whole generation of our children.


And don’t take my word for it, when a troubling report discloses many of our young feel ‘they have nothing to live for’.
www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-25559089

“As many as three quarters of a million young people in the UK may feel that they have nothing to live for, a study for the Prince's Trust charity claims.”


So what ARE the problems, nature, nurture and/or the wrong teaching methods – where the combination of a Labour government and Left Wing educationalist were a toxic mix?


This article a while back by the respected Max Hastings on a report by Miriam Gross, published by the Centre for Policy Studies, makes interesting reading.
www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-1296126/Ideologues-illiteracy-MAX-HASTINGS-terrible-damage-wrought-schools-Left-wing-educationalists.html


I may not agree with everything Michael Gove suggests, but what is clear is that for the time spent in full time education, those under 24-year olds education was not working for them and the facts, figures and results PROVES that – so Gove has to both challenge and make changes to the ideological bent of the educational establishment. IMO.

[tattybogle]

Ah well. Not all it seems then.

[TheHammaconda]

Sorry Isitmebut, my first post was a little flippant.

The PISA scores are not designed to be used as a league table. There are some flaws in the sampling methods and modelling of data, not to mention doubts raised about the actual test questions. Nonetheless, there are very few sets of educational data that are perfect. One needs to be very careful about using PISA to come to the conclusion that educational standards in the UK are falling.

The report identifies attending pupils who attended a pre-primary school performed, on average 53 points better in maths (equivalent to nearly 1 1/2 years of extra education). Rich students are nearly a year ahead of their poorer peers(39 points difference. Inequality in the UK has increased over the last 20 years. The UK is the 7th most unequal economy in the EU Eurostat. This suggests that reducing income inequality might help to improve educational standards.

The Mariam Gross report is an interesting read. She's produced a pamphlet which gives her opinion on literacy education in London, not backed up by any expert opinion (or dare I say, facts) about literacy education. This has pamphlet examining education in London has been seized on by the media as solid evidence for a return to a 'traditional' model of education throughout the rest of the UK.

Another factor to consider is a so-called inverse education law', educational resources are concentrated in richer areas.

[NearTheWindmill]

Well a few things.

When my DC were at primary I don't think all the teachers were well educated enough and this was a problem with its roots in the teacher training colleges. For example we had a teacher who taught one of my children that the x axis was vertical and the y axis was horizontal. We also had a teacher who sent home incorrect spellings and often communication from the the school was grammatically incorrect. (awaits flaming for that but the errors were spectacular).

DD was at a top 100 comp for two years and there huge problems with behaviour and a culture of excuses for the "deprived" notwithstanding the fact that most of the "deprived" were utterly lovely and had lovely parents. Some did not have stable lives and did not have the encouragement they should have had but nevertheless were not bad citizens. Those who were bad citizens were given a free reign and there were no alternatives. Persistent low level disruption was the norm.

There were one or two teachers who were frankly hopeless; one had been there for 15 years yet nothing had been done to performance manage; another was new and it was clear from week two she could neither teach nor control a class yet it took a year before she left. In both cases unless parents could afford to tutor their children were either switched off key subjects or were left to flail, never quite catching up.

The huge problem that has arisen in the UK where there are many many people who are well qualified but who aren't very well educated. They can't construct sentences or compute simple calculations involving decimals and fractions yet they have masters degrees - often two or even three.

The general decline in standards, expectations and encouragement for those who are near to or at the bottom of society; this links with the culture of excuses.

The fact that there is an expectation that huge organisations with flat structures suit every child. They don't and their needs to be an understanding that children are different and have different needs.

The assumption that vast swathes should have degrees; they don't need degrees they need good, sound foundation educations.

The merging of the role of schools, especially primary schools, with responsbilities for social issues, eating issues, political issues, etc., etc.. Their role is to teach in my opinion, not to opine on guardianista philosophy

I don't think the problems lie with Michael Gove, I think they stem from the 60s when everthing was supposed to "go". I well recall the school in my village being rebuilt as a 60s icon. No walls, lots of cushions, no set tables, all very orange and purple and arty. By the mid 70s that school was a main feeder into the local secondary modern and its children were very behind the children from other schools. My parents' best friend was the deputy head there and he used to comment regularly.

I don't know what the answer is but I don't hear teacher's offering answers; I hear them offering excuses and it is always somebody else's fault.

The low level disruption and lack of a handle on right and wrong did it for me which was why we moved dd after two years of misery caused by poor behaviour and low level disruption.

[TheHammaconda]

I'll post this separately as I'm not sure whether I'm might be outing myself. I'm a teacher and I'm lucky enough to have worked in England and in a school in Europe. I've found discipline, behaviour, motivation, parental support a problem in the UK. In the one school I've worked in in Belgium (but it's not a Belgian school) behaviour and discipline have been excellent, pupils are motivated and parents are incredibly involved. I would say that educational standards are higher, but it's an odd school, more like a private school with a very high socio-economic rating.

One thing to consider is that students, if they don't pass the year, are made to retake the year. This really motivates them to stop pissing about and places importance on their performance each year. In the UK, pupils are focused on their external exams. IME they really start to lose motivation in yrs 8 and 9. For some of them, that spark never comes back.

[SarfEasticated]

The Finnish model is always held up as the shining beacon, and as far as i understand it, the major differences from our system is that everyone goes to their local schools (no private schools) teachers have masters degrees, and education is left alone by political parties. Now as a disclaimer I got most of these facts from one BBC radio programme, but they seem important. Teachers are well qualified and valued, pupils do well in broadly similar community schools, and politicians leave schools to do what they do best.

[cansu]

Main problem in my opinion is lack of respect for discipline in schools. Teachers spend too much time and energy getting kids to behave and dealing with social issues rather than focusing on actually teaching. Look at those countries who are ahead, they have a high social value placed on education, a strong parental focus on the importance of education, a system that really values academic study and high expectations of young people. We just don't have the same cultural expectations.

[cansu]

I think the other issue is our obsession with the latest fashionable pedagogy. Teaching does not require the most whizzy techno gadget. You need people who know what they are talking about and kids who will listen and do the work. Of course you also need parents who respect and support the system. Whilst teachers spend their time and energy on social work, standards won't improve.

[TheHammaconda]

There's another, new, 'league table' called, IIRC, 'The Learning Curve'. It's from Pearson (who own/ are the UK's biggest examining body) and The Economist Intelligence Unit. Ranks the UK 6th. Can't link from iPad as BFing but google Economist Learning Curve and you should find an article from last month.

[Pumpkin567]

Standards seem so low. I remember that you only needed two E's at A level to go onto teacher training.

My sister is a teacher, she's really quite dim ( scraped through on re sits) and is dyslexic. She teaches primary. She wanted to apply to our school to teach our children. hell will freeze over before I allow her to fail my children we explained that we didn't want them taught by family.

I don't think there are enough staff in schools, they always seem so stretched and harassed.

[turkeyboots]

I have often thought (having gone through three education systems as a child) that the structure of English schools doesn't help any. The pre GCSE secondary years seem to be where pupils get lost. I like a middle school system like in the US, it gives those middle years a different focus.

[stillenacht]

Breakdown in trust between parents and schools. Parents believing their children above the teacher. Management believing the children above the teachers. Management scared of parents because God forbid they should write anything negative in the OFSTED questionnaire.

Sense of entitlement. Yes totally agree.

[stillenacht]

Obsession with data and league tables. Depersonalised education. Obsessive 'dialogue' marking-last weekend I spent 13 hours marking books and putting in comments which I know will be ignored by the pupils but that will tick the box for the management (all my colleagues feel this way). Lesson observations being a series of jump through hoops exercises.

[MrsCaptainReynolds]

Can't be bothered reading the whole thread. Titled "UK education..." but the data all relate to England. The UK is not synonymous with, or represented by data from, England.

[SarfEasticated]

I've just looked at the learning curve report which was really interesting and seen this quote:
“ ... If there is no positive re-enforcement of educational achievement taking place outside the school – if, for example, the larger culture glorifies
celebrities who can barely read – you will have huge trouble.”
— Dr Chester Finn, President, Thomas Fordham Institute

[NearTheWindmill]

I agree with that SarfEasticated.

[Solopower1]

A lot of interesting, thoughtful comments on this thread, but I have a generally good impression of both the English and Scottish education systems.

Also, as a teacher trainer, I go into schools often, and I almost always leave feeling optimistic and full of admiration and respect for the talented, hard-working staff and the charming, enthusiastic, hard-working children. Sorry if that sounds smug - but I just can't join in with the general doom and gloom. The (state) schools I visit are almost always places I would be very happy for my grandchildren to go to. This is in Scotland, btw, but it was the same, 20 years ago, in England.

Several times a year, groups of teachers from all over the world, including places like Hong Kong, come to the UK to learn from us - in spite of the fact that we are several points behind them on the PISA tests, and HK education is held up (along with Finnish) as the best in the world. When I point this out to the HKs, there is absolutely no gloating. They all look serious and say how stressful it was for them to achieve such results. They come to us to learn about communicative, child-centred methodologies. Maybe we should do the same: send groups of in-service teachers abroad for 4 weeks to learn from so-called 'successful' systems.

But the problems the OP identifies are important, and clearly there are areas where the system is not addressing the needs of the children.

A lot of what I wanted to say has already been said by others. Before we look at how to solve the problems, we need to think about what we want from an education system. If our objective is to raise standards for all, then getting rid of this government has to be top of the list. Then in no particular order: reducing social inequality; giving more money to schools; getting rid of independent schools; giving more autonomy to heads; more help for SN children; stopping politicians using the education system to further their own careers; smaller schools; getting parents more involved; absolutely insisting on higher qualifications for teachers; more free periods during the day for teachers but longer school days; no homework for under-14s (do it at school during longer school day); more classroom assistants; better links between primary and secondary schools; bringing back catchment areas; and the League tables - let's put them in the bin.

[MomentForLife]

Class sizes in most schools.

Depending on area,children from overseas who have little or no English. They obviously need their education, but when a class is already large and has limited resources it must be difficult for the child and teachers.

Respect and attitude to learning. There are parents at my child's school who seem to enjoy arguing with staff themselves!

[lljkk]

First of all let us first establish that there is a problem...“England’s young adults trail the world in literacy and maths”....OECD...

Harvey Goldstein, Bristol University, has published & spoken loads to explain why these international comparisons and league tables are faulty. As for the rest of the surveys cited, I've been hearing that stuff all my life (5 decades) so nothing changes. Nothing new there.

So I can't even accept the opening premise that English education is so faulty now. Not that I even like it. Lots of things I dislike about it I would have loathed even more 30-60 yrs ago (had even more of the worst of it then), so it's probably on an improvement trajectile.
Oh well.

[bakeroony]

SirChenjin has it bang on IMO.

I really don't see how the closing of the old technical colleges/polytechnics has helped improve education or employment prospects.

[TheSporkforeatingkyriarchy]

Because no matter how much politicians of all stripes talk about raising standards, their actions and the systems are about maintaining the status quo and keeping people in their place.

Even as experts bring forth evidence based practices, only those that fit this bias, and even big changes are make superficial differences compared to than real evidence based practice. Change is constant so teachers and students struggle to have a consistent course so politicos can say they're doing something but nothing that would change the wider systems of power ever comes into affect. This needs to be greater challenged.

[Solopower1]

The OP mentions unemployment among the under-24s. That is a huge problem, but it is not the education system that caused the recession. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if the recession was the fault of people who were mostly educated in private schools - that's what they did with their expensive education: make things a lot worse for the rest of us!
The present education system cannot be blamed for not preparing young people for non-existent jobs.

But literacy and numeracy levels do need to improve, obv. Until everyone is well-educated - not just those who are born with everything going for them.

[mercibucket]

i dont see a huge problem tbh
what i do see is a class problem so only the upper and upper middles have access to the best education and the best jobs

[bakeroony]

Isn't that how capitalism works? :(

Only way round it is to try and increase social mobility as much as possible, but recent governments have only succeeded in slowing this down since the...70s, I think. Thatcher

[flatpackhamster]

bakeroony

Isn't that how capitalism works? sad

No.

Only way round it is to try and increase social mobility as much as possible, but recent governments have only succeeded in slowing this down since the...70s, I think.

Social mobility rose under Thatcher, and fell under Labour.

[Isitmebut]

Education attitudes; excuse the paraphrase, but is ALL WELL in the Kingdom of Denmark?

If anyone is seriously interested in answers to the key questions my opening post, I suggest they try and see Channel 4’s ‘Scandimania’ series on last night, with foodie Huge Firmly Withastool, yesterday looking into the Danes.

IMO there is a social pact between parents, children and the State, where the children (and parents) totally appreciate their way of life and that the State will help them through life e.g. all stages of education, and generous welfare and other social needs later – but for that assurance, they understand they will pay more taxes than nearly every other European country – so don’t waste their opportunities.

The comparison with the attitudes here, was both mind blowingly stark & impressive.

I have not looked into Danish teaching methods, but if any country could turn this old fart into a socialist, Demark has more than a fair/blonde chance. lol