The true reason for deficit cutting.

[ivanhoe]

David Cameron is using the deficit as a cover to dismantle the welfare State and the role of the State for the above mentioned reasons, but none of this reality is being picked up by either Labour Ministers, Lib-Dem ministers, or the BBC Media. This reality is being dumbed down. The BBC media is compliant.

The very fabric of the role of what the State should provide in tax payers money to welfare, services and State pensions, is being whittled away under cover of reducing the deficit, and there is no opposition to it.

The Tory mantra of making painful cuts to reduce the deficit is little more than a smoke screen they hide behind to implement their ideology of reducing the size of the State, driving down wages, cutting benefits ect.

My guess is that they'd make pretty much the same decisions for ideological reasons even if there wasn't a deficit.

The cynic in me says how easy it is for the right wing comfortably well off, greed infested Tory supporters to ridicule and chastise people on the receiving end of Tory cuts in welfare. And how equally easy it is for the right wing press to encourage this, just to sell their papers.

The Thatcherist, hard line, anti social policies the Tories are forcing on us all makes them feel superior. And they perpetuate the suffering while living in their comfy homes without a conscience.

The Tories pretend to care about the pensioners having to choose between heating, or eating, the Tory's pretend to care about the family's wondering how they are going to feed their children today and tomorrow.

The Tories since Thatcher have been the same !

No longer a small "c" left of centre Conservative party with a good social conscience.
No, since the 80's they have been ultra right wing, hardnosed, and with no compassion but to condemn the poor to a life of misery and no hope so long as they can live in relative luxury.

This is how they want it, to keep the masses under their eternal control. The Tories only aim is power and control.

For that reason the Tories love it when the economy is bad, so bad that they blame the masses of poor for it. It is malicious and insidious.

And what makes it even more appalling is that the Tories actually do believe they are superior intellectually to everybody else.

This will be their downfall!, and I hope that this will be at the next general election in 2015.

The Tories deserve to be out of office for decades to come, if only to stop their bare faced arrogance.

Food banks in 21st century Britain, is as bad as the chronic homelessness we have, the awful old age poverty, and the low waged economy the Tories have nurtured throughout their 18 years of running Britain, 1979- 1997, and I might add, New Labour under Tony Blair and Gordon Brown, 1997- 2010, did nothing fundamental to reverse any of it.

Britain has suffered Thatcher's ideology for over 30 years.

Ivanhoe.

[BaconKetchup]

Hahahaha ttosca that's so hypocritical it almost sounds like it's purposefully a stupid post or something.

Who is the one who copies and pastes/writes out swathes of all this emotive waffle?

[ttosca]

It's not emotive waffle, it's the basis on which to have arguments.

I could either post my opinions-as-facts because thats-what-I-reckon because that's-what-read-in-the-Daily-Mail or I can actually link to articles which contain facts and assertions about the real world.

I'm not suggesting anybody accept anything I post at face value. In fact, I post them precisely so that they can be challenged.

Niceguy usually just comes out with ideology and nothing to back anything up, though he occasionally makes some bumbling effort to challenge links to govt. stats and so on.

Cogito almost never does anything but spout ideology. He never challenges any of my facts or statistics or posts facts or statistics of his own.

If I just posted my opinion and nothing else, I would be accused of being a 'left-wing ideologue'. And when I post articles which actually discuss facts and numbers, I am 'accused' of 'cut and paste'.

There is no way to satisfy the right-wing ideologues, so I'm not going to try.

[niceguy2]

Mate, your opinions make members of Socialist Worker seem a bit right wing. Practically everyone is to the right of your ideology.

Labour aren't repealing anything, the Tories actually seem pretty centre right now and UKIP are now firmly on the right. Given their popularity it seems the entire country has shifted significantly to the right.

So when you say there is no way of satisfying the right wingers, you actually mean the overwhelming majority of the population yes?

[ttosca]

When are you going to start actually addressing the arguments?

Support for the coalitions policies are based on lying to the public. How many times do I have to repeat myself?

=====================

Church leaders demand ministers apologise for "misrepresenting the poor"

An alliance of 11 churches condemns Iain Duncan Smith and Grant Shapps for their misuse of benefit statistics.

-

As I've regularly noted on The Staggers, rarely a month now passes without one of David Cameron's ministers being rebuked for some act of statistical chicanery (or, indeed, the Prime Minister himself). And it's not just the number crunchers at the UK Statistics Authority who are concerned. An alliance of 11 churches, including the Methodist Church, the Quakers and the Church of Scotland, has written to Cameron demanding "an apology on behalf of the government for misrepresenting the poor."

The leaders, including the Right Revd Tim Stevens, Bishop of Leicester, and the Right Revd Nick Baines, Bishop of Bradford, highlight three of the most recent offences:

• Grant Shapps's claim that "nearly a million people" (878,300) on incapacity benefit dropped their claims, rather than face a new medical assessment for its successor, the employment and support allowance.
  

• Iain Duncan Smith's claim that nearly 8,000 people moved into work as a result of the introduction of the benefit cap (for which, as I recently reported, he now faces a grilling from the work and pensions select committee).
  

• Duncan Smith's claim (yes, him again) that many people were applying for the Disability Living Allowance before the new Personal Independence Payment was introduced in order to avoid the new medical test.
  

They write:

"All three of these statements have drawn on high quality Government statistical data which has then been misused and misinterpreted. All serve to undermine the credibility of benefit claimants. They were all released at the same time as major changes to the benefit system, which will reduce the level of support many families receive.

"It is disturbing that these three instances conform to an apparent pattern of misleading and sometimes wholly inaccurate information from the Government when dealing with the issue of social security; a practice that has added to the misunderstanding and stigma which continues to pollute the debate around poverty in the UK. We are concerned that these inaccuracies paint some of the most vulnerable in our society in an unfavourable light, stigmatising those who need the support of the benefits system. No political or financial imperative can be given to make this acceptable."

www.newstatesman.com/politics/2013/06/church-leaders-demand-ministers-apologise-misrepresenting-poor

[niceguy2]

So let me get this straight then.

The coalition are lying to the public. They've been so good at it that everyone is suckered into the lie, that's what you are saying isn't it? And I guess therefore these lies are SO effective that Labour feel they have no choice but to continue on this unpopular path because spending money we blatantly have would lose them more votes than cutting essential services.....

I guess then that the IMF and EU are also suckered into the coalitions lies about the fact that cuts are necessary (let's put aside the argument of how much and how fast).

But you....you and your trusty computer's cut & paste feature are the ones who can see through the lies....

Yeah....right.........

[ttosca]

That the coalition have consistently lied to the public is a matter of record.

Your delusion is that you think 'everyone' agrees with you. They don't. Support for the mainstream parties is at an all-time low whilst contempt for politicians is at an all-time hight.

People are not apolitical - far from it, they have just realise that true power and representation lies elsewhere, which is why in the past couple of decades, you have seen the public protest in unprecedented numbers.

This will continue as the ideology of neo-liberalism impoverishes and immiserates a greater and greater portion of the population. When there is little or no middle-class left and people have nothing left to lose, there will be massive civil unrest. Expect it.

I've already addressed the point about Labour many times, as I tend to explain things to you many times. I'm not going to repeat myself again.

The IMF and EU have admitted that austerity has harmed european economies. In any case, the IMF is not concerned about promoting the well-being of citizens in the EU or the world. That's not its remit. It is concerned solely with promoting free-trade and opening and creating new markets.

Had the austerity measures worked like their ideology said it would, and growth was restored, yet at the same time, wages continued to declined, wealth inequality increased, and more people relied on foodbanks (as is happening now without growth), then the IMF would have considered it a success. They IMF represents the business class, not the public.

[CogitoErgoSometimes]

"He never challenges any of my facts or statistics or posts facts or statistics of his own."

He is a she, thanks. And I don't think it's written anywhere that a point of view is only valid if it's accompanied by huge great bodies of text that show somebody else's opinion. Do you turn up in the pub for a chat with a wheelbarrowful of newspapers or (heaven forbid) your laptop just in case someone asks you what you think?

[CogitoErgoSometimes]

Barman "Nice day sir"
ttossa "You're merely spouting the rhetoric of the right-wing press and you are too thick to know you are being manipulated. Here, let me delve into this weighty satchel & read you a four page conspiracy theory about a government weather cover-up written by someone in the Huffington Post who of course has no ulterior motive and who I therefore believe unquestioningly"
Barman (puzzled) "The sun is shining and we have seating outside. Can I get you a drink?"
ttossa "Not only changing the subject but you can't be bothered to substantiate your ridiculous 'shining sun' assertions by matching my four page article with one of your own! "
Barman (sighs) "Next...."

[CogitoErgoSometimes]

[niceguy2]

Oh right, i was nearly there then.

• The coalition are lying to the public so well that most believe it
  
• Labour are pretty much the same as the coalition nowadays
  
• EU/IMF are representing the business class and conspiring against the public
  

Basically it's one giant conspiracy isn't it? And we're all suckers. Well except you. You know the truth and have been kind enough to share that truth with us on MN. Except we're too thick and too brainwashed to understand that right?

I must admit, i haven't seen any evidence of massive civil unrest in the UK. Actually..there was that riot that lasted days. But from memory that was after the police shot someone and much of the 'anger' seemed to be directed towards PCWord, Comet & designer sports stores. Do you think that was because of the coalition's neo-liberal ideology? And the theft of plasma TV's was merely a protest at the status quo right?

Interestingly enough though, the country with the largest amount of civil unrest has been Greece which had the biggest budget deficit. I haven't seen much rioting in Germany which pretty much had a balanced budget.

[Ehhn]

The reason MPs salaries go up is because they vote on their own pay rises. This should reveal that actually both sides of the political spectrum are self serving. But then, if you or I got to vote on whether we and our colleagues got a pay rise, I think we all would say yes. The system needs changing.

I'm a social democrat politically and I personally cannot stand what has happened to higher education and tuition fees. Having said that, in our constituency we have a Tory MP who is genuinely a good guy and who works hard. I think talking in grand scale terms of ideologies often obscures the individual good that people do. The best way to change things is not to conjure great conspiracy theories but to encourage meaningful grassroots activism - active membership in political parties, helping people register to vote and joining pressure groups.

[BaconKetchup]

niceguy Cogito

[ttosca]

Cogito-

He is a she, thanks. And I don't think it's written anywhere that a point of view is only valid if it's accompanied by huge great bodies of text that show somebody else's opinion. Do you turn up in the pub for a chat with a wheelbarrowful of newspapers or (heaven forbid) your laptop just in case someone asks you what you think?

No, Cogito. When you make assertions about the real world - such as claims about social security and so on, I expect you to actually back up what you say with facts. At the very least, a link would do.

Otherwise we're in the realm of exchanging nothing but speculation and unfounded prejudice without any basis in reality.

[ttosca]

Niceguy-

You are under a serious delusion that the majority of the public agree with you and hold your reactionary views. They don't.

[ttosca]

Cogito: To passerby... "Nice day, sir!"

Passerby: "Indeed it is. Lovely sun shining today!"

Cogito: "It is lovely! Did you know that the Sun is actually a giant yellow ballon with a huge lightbulb in the middle of it?"

Passerby: "Erm... sorry?"

Cogito: "I said, did you know..."

Passerby: "Yes, I heard what you said. That's a joke, right?"

Cogito: "Not at all. It's a well-known fact."

Passerby: "That's not true at all. It's not a yellow balloon. It's a star which burns hyrdogen in a fusion reaction to create heat"

Cogito: "Nonsense!"

Passerby: "No really, it's true. Where did you get the idea that it was a giant balloon?"

Cogito: "Look, it's my opinion, OK!?"

Passerby: "But your opinion isn't based on anything. You just made it up. Look, it says right here in this online encyclopaedia that the Sun..."

Cogito: "You're ridiculous, man! Every time a man holds an opinion, you expect him to use references and notes, etc. How rude! Good day to you, sir!"

Passerby: "Err... good day."

[Toadinthehole]

When did MPs last have their pay raised?

What was their pay 10 years ago?

Genuine questions.

[Toadinthehole]

ttosca,

The OECD has actually told Osborne to implement more austerity which, despite his rhetoric, has been comparatively modest thus far.

It is important to understand just why austerity is considered detrimental to an economy: it is because it reduces the amount of money in circulation and thus prevents economic growth from allowing debtors to pay their debts. However, what the Libcons have done is use quantitive easing to pump money into the banks (the biggest debtors around at present). This should mitigate this problem.

The alternative is to increase public spending direct into the economy, ie, old-fashioned Keynsianism. This sounds nice, but is in reality just a rehash of the the absolutely disastrous policy of Heath's Conservative government of 1970-74 and Wilson's Labour government of 1974-76, and the hyper-inflation they caused. To advocate those policies again in all seriousness means one is either uninformed or is an ideologue who disregards history.

The real villains of austerity are not in the British government but the German government, which refuses to allow quantitive easing to be used in the same way for the Euro.

The UK required a bail-out from the IMF last time its figures were so sketchy. Perhaps the Libcons deserve a bit of credit for avoiding that so far.

[niceguy2]

You are under a serious delusion that the majority of the public agree with you and hold your reactionary views. They don't.

My reactionary views? I'm just trying to understand your position. Like I said, it appears to me that your basis for your opinion is that:

1. It's all some giant conspiracy by shadowy figures who aren't really representing the 'citizens'
   
2. Voters have not shifted to the right but instead aren't interested. In which case I wonder why the surge in UKIP but whatever....
   
3. And those Tories who are so nasty, so evil, so incompetent have somehow managed to successfully lie to the entire population, the IMF, EU, OECD and more.
   

It just doesn't make very much sense to me, that's all. But then what do I know? Apparently I'm too dumb to understand.

[garlicgrump]

I like this thread so am bookmarking it.

Today I signed up to The People's Assembly. Despite having been fairly politically active during my lifetime, this is my first ever party subscription - and it's not even a party yet (watch that space.)

[Ilikethebreeze]

I cant be bothered to read yet another thread on this sort of thing.
fwiw, I agree with TheFallenNinja.

[infamouspoo]

'""""Why shouldn't we dismantle the welfare state? It'd make things interesting around here for one when the idle have to get off their fat arses and start working"".'

You do know the welfare state covers children, disabled people and the elderly or would you like them to get off their 'fat' arses too? Or just step over them starving in the streets ?

[ttosca]

niceguy-

Oh right, i was nearly there then.

Far from it, it seems.

• The coalition are lying to the public so well that most believe it
  
  Members of the coalition have repeatedly lied to the public, specifically with respect to the causes of current financial crisis (by blaming Labour's alleged 'overspending'), and on the costs and amount of fraud related to welfare. That is correct.
  
  
• Labour are pretty much the same as the coalition nowadays
  
  Both mainstream parties are neo-liberal parties. Labour does not represent an effective opposition to the dominance of neo-liberalism
  
  
• EU/IMF are representing the business class and conspiring against the public
  
  There's no 'conspiracy'. There doesn't need to be any conspiracy, any more than Coca-Cola and Jaguar need to 'conspire' to lobby the govt. to lower corporate taxes. No conspiracy is necessary because the interests of businesses and the rich are strongly convergent.
  
  Basically it's one giant conspiracy isn't it?
  
  No, quite the contrary. That's the very point, in fact. The point is that the interests of the rich and business class are strongly convergent with each other, and strongly divergent to the public.
  
  And we're all suckers.
  
  I think you should stop talking for the grand 'we'. There has never before in history been this number of people protesting in the streets and demanding a change in the political economic system which creates war, misery, poverty, and environmental disaster.
  
  Well except you. You know the truth and have been kind enough to share that truth with us on MN. Except we're too thick and too brainwashed to understand that right?
  
  It seems that you sometimes have difficulty understanding what I say, given that I have to repeat myself 1000 times and then you come out statements which totally misrepresent my opinion.
  
  I must admit, i haven't seen any evidence of massive civil unrest in the UK. Actually..there was that riot that lasted days. But from memory that was after the police shot someone and much of the 'anger' seemed to be directed towards PCWord, Comet & designer sports stores. Do you think that was because of the coalition's neo-liberal ideology? And the theft of plasma TV's was merely a protest at the status quo right?
  
  There were riots because of underlying social problems of youth unemployment, hopelessness, and alienation. These problems weren't caused by the coalition, but they were exacerbated by it. These problems have existed for a long time. They appear to be getting worse.
  
  Interestingly enough though, the country with the largest amount of civil unrest has been Greece which had the biggest budget deficit. I haven't seen much rioting in Germany which pretty much had a balanced budget.
  
  Amazing what mental contortions you put yourself through. You mean there has been the largest amount of civil unrest in the location where there has been the most austerity and the least amount in the place where there has been the least austerity? Is that what you mean to say?

[niceguy2]

Erm...i am understanding you perfectly. And all you have done above is disagree with how I've interpreted your position then actually agreed albeit using longer words.

[ttosca]

Oh Jesus Christ...

[Ilikethebreeze]

ttosca.
I will say something to you that I said to one other poster on MN some time ago.
If you genuinely care about what you are writing about, you will try and make what you posts more reader friendly.
Most or many posters have no desire to read the huge great long posts that you write.
Posts that are no more than half the size of what you write would be soooo much better.
Thank you
hth