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Philosophy/religion

Struggling with my faith.

16 replies

Authorinwaiting · 19/02/2024 08:26

So I was reared a catholic. But since hitting my 40's and seeing my indoctrinated mother make decisions which were truly awful just because it's what she learned in catechism at school, I've become really disenchanted with religion.
To a point where I'm not even sure there is a god in the sense we are told about him.

However, today I read a Lenten message from the pope and it was lovely. (I'lll put it below)

I just wonder why those men and women who suck round the priest and act holier than thou but gossip or behave in a judgmental manner can't just be lovely. Wouldn't the world be a nicer place if we all just were kind.

I know how naive that sounds but look at the problems religion is causing at the moment.

Struggling with my faith.
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NonnyMouse1337 · 19/02/2024 15:58

Hello, I am an atheist, so maybe not the best person to respond. But I used to believe in god and was raised to be religious etc. My mother is still very religious and this causes some conflict between us, decisions she has made in her life due to her beliefs have not been good... And so on.

I think it's fairly normal to question our religion and beliefs at certain points in our lives. Many people prefer to pick and choose the bits of their religion that appeals to them. Some decide to ditch 'organised' religion and follow alternative ones, or some sort of broad philosophical and ethical ideology instead of a specific deity.
Maybe you might find these sort of flexible and relaxed approaches to faith more appealing?

Humans are deeply flawed and can be hypocritical. Religion doesn't really help overcome these traits, but people can enjoy a sense of community and camaraderie with other believers. Religious beliefs and rituals can provide a sense of structure and purpose and so on. You could focus on the personal benefits of your religion and your relationship with your god, and ignore other people. Or try reading books by various philosophers and people who used to be religious - see if anything resonates with you.

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Climbingwallsnotmountains · 19/02/2024 16:15

Try and split it - faith (your personal relationship with God) and religion (man-made relationships that may or not include God)
Religion is a problem in the world because we're focused on our wants and desires, and not on God and what He wants for us. The church (any denomination) is just an organisation run by people for people. Sometimes it can do a lot of good, and sometimes a lot of harm.
Develop your own relationship with God and ask Him to guide you. And when the church says something that doesn't feel right in your heart, ask yourself what Jesus would have thought about it.
Don't give up on God because he'll never give up on you, and don't let yourself be discouraged by the behaviour and attitudes of others, even if they claim to be speaking for God.

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Dilbertian · 19/02/2024 17:09

This Jew agrees with that Pope.

What it all boils down to, after all, is Love Thy Neighbour As Thyself. Do as you would be done by. That which is hateful to you, do not do unto others.

Or, as a Christian friend used to tell me "When I'm not sure what to do, I ask myself 'what would Jesus have done?' And then I know what to do."

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Thegreatestoftheseislove · 19/02/2024 20:11

Climbingwallsnotmountains said it: separate faith from religion. Your faith is your own personal journey with Jesus. Religion is about humans trying to mold God into their own image. As Dilbertian reminded us "What would Jesus do?" is a good place to start when pondering any challenge.

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Authorinwaiting · 20/02/2024 06:38

Thank you all for your response. I appreciate it so much that you took the time to
Answer.

I am going to ponder the separation of faith and church today.

@NonnyMouse1337 could I ask what triggered you to become an atheist?

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MariaVT65 · 20/02/2024 06:44

Another atheist here (originally raised to be Jewish).

Something that stood out in your post was you questioning ‘what you are told about god’. I think that’s the key. It’s good to sometimes question whether certain teachings are always accurate and good to explore your own ideas and other possibilities.

The ‘love thy neighbour’ point on this thread is also interesting, as many atheists will tell you that we don’t need religion love our neighbours and be kind :)

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Itscatsallthewaydown · 20/02/2024 06:54
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Lorac23 · 20/02/2024 07:36

Although I have a strong faith and a strong sense of spirituality, I struggle with organised religion and some of the hypocrites who practise it so conspicuously (some clear examples in the current government).

Unfortunately organised religion ends up, so often, as the excuse for wars, oppression, domestic violence - I could go on. Of course if it wasn't religion that was used as the cover it would be something else - eye colour, skin colour, the way people pronounce the word hello, and often at the root religious disagreements are all about either resources or some misaligned concept of power or a desire for the worldly wealth and status some of the so called leaders pretend to eschew.

Your relationship with God, and Jesus if you're a Christian, is your business.

For me personally places have always held far more resonance spiritually than someone's interpretation of ancient parchments or scrolls, and on a retreat many years ago I remember talking to one of the other participants on a walk through the woods.

She looked up at the canopy, breathed in, and said softly, "This is my cathedral".

Try to find what resonates with you personally and that's where you'll find your God. And all any of us can do is try to be that little lantern in our own backyard, even in these dreadful times.

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Authorinwaiting · 20/02/2024 07:46

@Itscatsallthewaydown flip sake! I should have realised it was too wholesome. Not one mention of hell once.
Thanks for the clarity.

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ErrolTheDragon · 20/02/2024 08:04

Authorinwaiting · 20/02/2024 07:46

@Itscatsallthewaydown flip sake! I should have realised it was too wholesome. Not one mention of hell once.
Thanks for the clarity.

Tbf, neither does the pope's genuine message, which was linked to from the snopes.

https://press.vatican.va/content/salastampa/en/bollettino/pubblico/2024/02/01/240201c.html

Reading it as an atheist... the good bits don't require religion, and religious organisations are as prone as any others to the bad bits To be all-powerful, to be looked up to by all, to domineer over others: every human being is aware of how deeply seductive that lie can be. It is a road well-travelled. We can become attached to money, to certain projects, ideas or goals, to our position, to a tradition, even to certain individuals. Instead of making us move forward, they paralyze us. Instead of encounter, they create conflict.

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NonnyMouse1337 · 20/02/2024 09:08

Oh it was a very long and slow process @Authorinwaiting
Plenty of little (and big) things over my childhood and youth that didn't add up.

My mum was Catholic, but when I was quite young she joined the Jehovah's Witnesses. They are bonkers, but I was raised to view their doctrine as 'the Truth'. (Top tip: Everyone is raised to view their own religion as 'the Truth' - how convenient 😁)

I've always loved science, nature and learning about the world. Loved dinosaurs as a child (and still do). I remember learning about paradise and the scripture of all the animals there, the lion will lie down with the lamb etc, and I innocently asked one of the Elders in the congregation why the Bible doesn't mention dinosaurs, and will there be dinosaurs in paradise, will they be resurrected like humans... Got some dumb, patronising answer which irritated me. It became clear the adults didn't know all the answers even though they liked to think they did and they acted like I was some silly girl.

As I grew older, my questions and doubts got more complex. I started to feel weird about praying - like I would pray to god to help me in my exams or some personal problem, people around me would pray to get a good job or thank god for blessing them when they bought a new house or car. It all felt very arbitrary and weird - why would god help me pass my exams or help someone buy a big house, but not help someone who is being brutally raped and murdered? Why are my relatively pointless prayers being answered but someone who is really suffering being ignored? The answer to anything and everything was always "to pray" but I felt like it was very selfish and petty to pray about the issues that concerned me as they seemed insignificant compared to genuine suffering in the world. It's very big headed to think god should listen to your prayers...
A friend I had in primary school died and it had a big effect on me. We hadn't seen each other for years, but I sank into a deep depression in my early teens. She was wonderful and smart and funny and she had loving parents. I didn't think I was smart or funny or had anything worthwhile about myself, and my parents were crap. So why did she die and I still lived? I prayed and wept so much for god to swap our places - surely he would have known I would have gladly given up my life for hers. She had so much to live for and I didn't. Again it seemed very arbitrary and cruel.

I was always aware of women being viewed and treated as "lesser than" men and this pissed me off a lot. I come from a very conservative and patriarchal culture, and the Bible seemed just as bad. I raged inside at the double standards practiced culturally and religiously. And I was pissed off when women would meekly accept their inferiority and secondary status.

As an older teen, there was a young Elder in our congregation who seemed nice and "a bit modern and open minded" compared to all the old duffers. I hoped I would find someone like him eventually to marry when I was an adult. And one day he was rambling on about some scripture talking about the wisdom of god's ways. I can't remember the exact verse - it was in the old testament - but god commanded to kill not just the men, but also all the children/young boys. And this dude said that although it seemed harsh, it was an example of god's wisdom because those "pagan" children would have grown up and retaliated against god's chosen people. I was horrified. There never seemed a good "divine" reason from my point of view to slaughter innocent children. It felt like this god and the people who follow him are perverse. Is this really the sort of god I wanted to follow?

The JWs criticise the Catholic church a lot. But I was watching satellite TV late one night and there was a documentary on an American news channel about the sexual abuse in JW congregations, with people coming forward about what happened to them and how the organisation keeps trying to cover it up. To say I was shocked was an understatement. I really started to struggle a lot with my faith.

Eventually I moved away from home as a young adult, and started searching the internet for more information about the JWs and religion in general. JWs are taught to avoid anything that isn't published by the organisation, so I was quite scared about reading "satanic" things to turn me away from god. I finally got the courage to purchase a book called "Crisis of Conscience" by Raymond Franz who was very high up in the JW org and ended up being a big critic of the doctrine and practices that went on internally. That really blew everything apart for me. I cried a lot reading that book and felt my whole world turned upside down. What do you do when you are confronted with evidence that what you thought all your life was "The Truth" isn't the case? It was definitely a "crisis of conscience" for me. I suppose I had a sort of mental breakdown for a while. All these years I thought I was the problem, I was deficient, I didn't have enough faith, always having questions and doubts.... When actually it's just a bunch of men making arbitrary decisions that have huge ramifications on people's lives, especially women's lives.

I still believed in a god, but no longer wanted anything to do with JWs. I tried to look at other Christian denominations but they all had similar flaws. I tried to expand my view to look at other religions as well, but again all had the same sort of issues. Once I saw through the lies and pitfalls, it became a lot harder to accept the glaring holes in other belief systems. I couldn't find a way "back". Remember what I said about everyone thinking their religion is the truth? It just conveniently happens to be the one they were born into or converted to..... We all think our religion is the right one ..... It's just an expression of people wanting their worldview and beliefs to be taken as the correct path... Which probably means none of them are the right one.

Anyway very sorry for rambling, but that's actually a really brief overview!! I suppose I was agnostic for a while and still wanted to hold on to certain beliefs, but eventually I realised that I was probably what people called an atheist. Religion and belief in a god was like a thick fog that surrounded me my whole life. I couldn't see where I was going, relied on what other people told me to do. I felt very depressed when I believed in god because I never felt like I could live up to all these expectations. As my belief faded away, it was like the fog gradually getting lighter and eventually disappearing. I could see all around me clearly for the first time and although it was really scary, I didn't have to rely on other people or the writings of long dead men to tell me things. I had to learn how to navigate the world on my own and really understand right from wrong, good from bad. I realise some people find that very troubling and profoundly depressing, but it was the complete opposite for me.

Anyway I wish you well on your own "crisis of conscience" journey. Maybe you will find an easier path to navigate that will allow you to still hold on to your beliefs and faith while reconciling or ignoring the man-made directives. There's no rush and you don't need to have all the answers. These things take time and hopefully you will find the peace and contentment you are looking for. 😊

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Oneofthesurvivors · 20/02/2024 09:12

Not engaging with your family doesn't make one a bad person or a sinner.

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Authorinwaiting · 20/02/2024 10:02

@NonnyMouse1337 wow, what a journey! Thank you for sharing.

I think the deep problems I have with my mother and the ramifications that has had on all my relationships since is something I need to reconcile before so can begin to sort out the mess that is my faith.

I'm struggling to not feel it's naive to believe in god.

I have some reading and soul searching to do.

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Dilbertian · 20/02/2024 10:19

Itscatsallthewaydown · 20/02/2024 06:54

Hmm, thought it looked fishy. Like one of those cutesy sayings that accompany a photo of Morgan Freeman or Robin Williams.

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/pope-francis-lent-easter/

Ironically, it's exactly the point my Rabbi makes: Joe you conduct yourself is more important than how ritualistic you are.

BTW, the point that another poster made, about all religions teaching that their truth is the only truth: that is not the case. I was taught that our truth is the only one for us. For us Jews. Other people may have other truths which are tight for them. S as ever, it is how they conduct tenants which defines them as good people or people who will go to heaven etc.

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NonnyMouse1337 · 20/02/2024 10:55

@Authorinwaiting mother and daughter relationships can definitely be fraught and complicated! Makes sense to focus on untangling that as our relationships with our parents do have an impact on so many parts of our lives.

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SilverViking · 21/02/2024 12:55

Bear in mind that everyone falls short ... and the great commandment is to love God and love your neighbour.
As others said, it may help to separate faith and relationship with God from church/religion and especially people (whether they practice their faith or not).
Remember that Jesus picked 12 disciples that all were sinners .... who denied Him, who handed Him over to be killed, who doubted Him. So if the Disciples who lived with Jesus were sinners ... then why would expect anyone to not be sinners - including ourselves?

For me, as a Catholic, I find the following helpful;

  • The literal translations of words used for God in Genesis is "I am what I am", "the force" and "the force of all forces". this helped me personally frame a different understanding of "God" - not human, not imaginable, greater than all things imaginable, "the force of all forces" (gravity, nuclear, nature) - it is just immense and on a different level to what we can understand or imaging.
  • When the Universe, earth etc was created, it had a certain order (which science tries to understand and describe). The elements/forces come together in a form what has allowed matter and then life to be created. But how those elements / forces come together also means that we won't live forever ... our bodies wear our, certain parts are defective and we develop illnesses prematurely, natural elements combine to cause flooding, earthquakes, fire etc and of course our human nature as people means that we often cause suffering to many others.
  • We were created with free will - we have the option to want to be closer to God - follow His way and be a force for good (knowing we will be imperfect and not always succeed at loving our neighbour) - or want to be separated from a God.
  • Ultimatly after death, those who are in fellowship with God are "saved" and their eternity is in the presence ofGod - the force of all forces ... from dust you were and to dust you shall return. Those who reject God will not be in His presence. What this looks like ... nobody knows, but many have presented their ideas!!
  • Not everyone will have heard of God from the Gospel, but God desires all to be saved. So everyone has the option to be saved. It will be God who judges.
  • We cannot judge anyone ... only God knows their heart and purpose.
  • We can't use or blame anyone for our own faith, actions or relationship with God. We are the sole owners and responsible for ourselves.
  • The bible has many genres. It is not all literal. It tells us the "why" God created us... not the "how". The older books are thousands of years old and would have been passed on orally, in a way people understood at the time (not how our advanced learning of today would record information).
    Of course the newer books in the bible are more factual about Jesus' life on earth.
  • Through the stories of the bible, it tells of God's great love for us... wanting us to be with Him and forgiving us over and over again - no matter how often we turn away from Him. That is as true today as it was thousands of years ago!!

    That was a bit long...but those were some key things that helped me. They are loads more.. but I'll stop for now.

    I've found Catholic Answers, Assention Presents, Fr. Mike Schmitz, Breaking the Habit as well as lots of others very insightful on YouTube ... but beware, there are many religious nutcases also out there .... whether Catholic or not!!
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