Help me believe there is a god

[littlenamechanges]

I really want to believe God exists but at the moment I'm really struggling as there is so much pain and suffering in this world! When I asked someone why this would happen if there is a god their reply was there is also a devil but isn't god all powerful? Why would he let innocent children go through so much pain and suffering?

[NikiBabe]

I'm referring to people/ children who are suffering at the hands of another human being. Surely no one needs that in their lives!
Why another human?

Take a look at the bible?

Religion has been an excuse for the most appalling behaviour since time immemorial.

For me the question is whether or not religion makes people behave better or not. It really doesn't.

Wondering why bad things happen if God exists. God himself is a vengeful malevolent being.

Also we do not factor into the will of god (if there is one). God put us to live in the world he created for us, not to live in his world. Whether God exists or not, we are on our own.

[bluedemilune]

does the baby know when we hold her down to get her immunisations that we are anything except the inflicter of her pain? what about when we withhold something from our child that we are fully capable of delivering in order to teach them restraint, patience. perseverence. giving the child everything they want leads to them growing up unable to deal with the world as it is. leaves them without emotional resilience which they need not just because the world is difficult but because people have free will all on their own. a spoilt child can easily grow up into a spoilt adult. let them not learn the skills to deal with other peoples free will and they grow up into tyrants that oppress people who don't like them. as parents we know its not one size fits all for our children, each one is an individual that needs careful attention to grow up into a well rounded adult, taking the shy child out to drama to teach them confidence, taking the bossy child to karate to teach them to follow instructions. God is not a parent but i understood that things arent always happy happy joy joy with God just as I cant be always happy joy joy for my children. that as i seek to teach my children lessons from things they may not see the wisdom of yet, God teaches me lessons by things i dont see the wisdom of at the time. sometimes, decades later, i get it and i hope my children get it too.

[CardinalSin]

There is proof that things were done in his name, but not a shred of contemporary evidence confirming his existence, similarly with Jesus.

[bluedemilune]

On the existence of the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) theres plenty of proof that he existed, nothing supernatural about it. first evidence just look at the arab wars of conquest which began right after his death and established a whole empire based on the religion he came with. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_Muslim_conquests
the occurences were very fast, very dramatic, very cross checkable and objective facts that something extraordinary happened in arabia in the 7th century. something ideological that gave those desert bedouin the confidence and ability to drive out the great empires of their time from the middle east. and had the Quran itself been from other than God, had it been from Muhammad (pbuh) himself or made by his followers, then it would have been as altered and changed as the Bible with its four Gospels and multiple versions. 1 billion muslims all follow and pray from the same Quran, Shia, Sunni, conservative, liberal, etc and that a Quran from 21st century has exactly the same content and verses, chapters, sentences, as a Quran from the 7th century. Muslims set alot of store by that as evidence in itself that the Quran is divinely inspired.

as for your question i kind of think sugarplumfairy had the gist of it in their third paragraph using that example of the matrix. already we in the capitalist west have this idea of human nature, that it progresses by struggle. human ingenuity, human greatness is achieved by need to survive and necessity. Already, before we talk of sickness etc muslims say God created us with the physical frailties of our bodies, that we feel hunger, and cold, and heat, that we catch colds or stomach bugs etc, and those along with the physical realities of the planet we live on mean we have to work to create optimum conditions for our needs.

In Islam we believe that heaven is not simply there automatically but that it must be worked for by good deeds. helping the sick, the hungry, the orphan, the refugee, etc. the Quran says that God established Adam and his descendents as caretakers on earth, to minister and take care, that we are not just its consumers. that life and death is a test for which of us is best in deeds, that when we sin corruption spreads in the land and in the sea.

in the Quran it says it is not God who is taken to account but that it is us humans that are taken to account. are things like malnutrition, drought, famine, low sea fish stocks caused by man's own actions: deforestation, cfc's, fossil fuel burning, chemical dumping, overfishing? what bout the rise in childhood cancers, www.webmd.com/news/breaking-news/cancer-strikes-a-small-town/20161020/childhood-cancer-rates-rising, to blame that on God when all evidence points that its possibly man made environmental factors? then the way we deal with those crises: indifference, ideology, compassion fatigue.

[CardinalSin]

And no, the "leading scientists in the world" do not say that. There are some Muslim "scientists" who claim that, but your statement is simply a lie.

[CardinalSin]

Circular reasoning.

The Qur'an is the proof because the Qur'an says the Qur'an is the proof because...

[babba2014]

Also the Qur'an teaches us to accept Jesus as well. He was sent as a Messenger, and he told his people of a message still to come. Muhammad (peace be upon him) carried a message like Jesus, Moses and the Prophets before him. Jesus fasted, today we see Muslims fast. David fasted. The Bible talks about Jesus praying in a way that Muslims do (head on floor) and so did Abraham and the Prophets before him.
Mary also wore loose clothing. If we look in the streets and we saw a person covering and wearing loose clothing the way she described, we'd probably think hey they're Muslim.
So the Qur'an doesn't reject any of the previous Prophets. We have to believe in all of them and that they called to worship one God and the Qur'an was the last and final message in which scientific facts which could not have been thought of by man in those days were states and till today cannot be disproved. I hope I haven't offended anyone but feel free to look it up and see what Dr Keith Moore (medical students would know about him, his work on the embryo is studied in universities) said about the scientific facts on the embryo.

[babba2014]

The Qur'an is the proof. The leading scientists in the world agree that certain things weren't known 100 years before, let alone 1400 years before.
Marrying a young girl was nothing new in those times and if it was not the norm then there would have been thousands or let's say hundreds of people opposing it then and now but no one bats an eyelid at that in those days. Not long ago in this country kids were working and bringing in the income. It wasn't abnormal. She wasn't even going to marry him, she was engaged to someone else beforehand.

If the Qur'an made scientific claims that's could be disproved today, people would have a point. But the embryo, the orbit of the planets and many other facts have no doubt today and there is no contradiction in those facts. Had a human written it, perhaps some scientific facts would be correct in future years, but many others would have to be changed with new evidence. This hasn't happened with the ones stated in the Qur'an. It can only be known the a Higher being who has knowledge of the unseen at a time where there was no microscopes or x-ray or being able to carry out a sonogram to see each stage of a baby.

I as a woman do not feel oppressed. I do everything with my own will. The Qur'an taught people that women can inherit, women can vote, women have rights at a time where having a baby girl would be frowned upon (and even now in some countries it is seen as a negative). The Qur'an honoured Mary and women in general.

[Cailleach666]

Personally I feel it's not God who causes the bad things - it's the wrong choices that humans make that cause all sorts of consequences for other humans and the environment.

How do humans create earthquakes? Or fatal viruses? Or drought?

[CardinalSin]

There's actually no more proof that the paedophile prophet existed than that Jesus did - exactly none. Which means his book is just another creation after the fact, by people who actually did know something (although most of the "scientific facts" proclaimed to be before their time by Q'ran enthusiasts don't stand up to the slightest scrutiny), and it has been used to control people and subjugate women ever since. Just like the Bible.

[crazykitten20]

Imo there's a big difference between god and religion.

Religion doesn't appeal to me. God does.

www.sapphyr.net/largegems/littlesoul-thesun.htm

It's a way of thinking 😊

[grasspigeons]

I love my children more than anything in the world. They were loved before they were born and were conceived in love. Despite this I brought them into a world knowing there was terrorism, natural disasters, diseases, pain and suffering. I have already seen them suffer small illnesses and I know, one day, they will die as we all must.
Now, I am not God but I suppose it's the same dilemma. Why would God make life exist in these circumstances. Perhaps this is the only circumstances you can get the vast variety and quantity of life.

[babba2014]

Sorry for spelling mistakes. No edit function!

*mentions a verse like it
*orbit of THE planets
*bring a verse like it
*promised paradise

[SuperBeagle]

Life becomes a lot simpler when you accept that there is no puppet master pulling the strings and that, instead, there is a relatively unpredictable, untameable force called "nature", which explains everything which religion fails to.

[babba2014]

Let's look away from the media for a second as that's what puts people off the most in regards to this.

The biggest proof that there is a God is the Qur'an. Shocked? Let's look into it.

The Qur'an was revealed bit by bit to a man in Arabia over 1400 years ago who couldn't read or write.

In this Qur'an, it states many scientific facts which would be totally unknown in those days as there was no technology, no microscopes or any material to prove anything.

A few examples. The embryo. In the Qur'an it explains so eloquently how the embryo is formed and then the stages it goes through as it grows. How would someone even know this without the scientific resources which came out much later? Without seeing inside the human body. You can Google this and find what the Qur'an says about the embryo and there will be no doubt there when you look at how things were in those times.

The Qur'an mentions that orbit of the planets. Also something that would be unknown to humans during that time. Nor could it be proven then.

It also mentions how the sky protects us from the sun (and I bet you remember growing up always hearing about global warming).

The Arabic language in the Qur'an is so well written that God has a open challenge in the Qur'an that all people can come together and being a verse like it, it is not possible. We could not write a book, in Arabic (even if we knew the language or got the people fluent and best at the language to write it) that could have scientific facts that for example, that could be then proven 400+ years later and not change. Science is always changing and being revised but what hasn't changed? Science has proved whatever scientific facts are mentioned in the Qur'an. And those scientific facts have not changed. There's no other explanation for how the embryo grows

This same book gets over 1.8 billion people to pray 5 times a day, to fast 30 days in Ramadhan, to give in charity, to not gamble, to not drink alcohol (but don't worry, the Qur'an promises rivers of milk, honey AND alcohol in paradise. And in paradise it won't have the negative effects that it has in this world).
Could we, even if we all came together, write a book that not only had scientific facts which would be proven hundreds of years later but also make people fast, pray, give away their money, stay away from gambling and alcohol, all of these things together?

See this is why we shouldn't look at the media portrayal of Islam. Most Muslims (not saying all are good, there are some who do bad but most are good and doing the above), so most Muslims do the above and are not on the streets killing other people. This world would be a very different place if islam was a religion of violence. Heck even if there was war, no tree can be killed, nor animals, women and children should not be touched. If islam promoted hurting others then the 1.8 billion plus Muslims would be doing that along with praying 5 times a day, not having food AND water from dawn until dusk every year (and in the UK this year many place were around 1:30am to 9:30pm fasts). This is the effect of the Qur'an on people from all over the world.

It's never been altered and thousands and thousands of people have memorised it so it could also never be altered even if someone tried. God made it a easy to remember off by heart. Some kids at the age of 6 have memorised it entirely.

If the above cannot be denied then there is one answer then that is it wasn't written by any man but something much higher, an Almighty? A powerful force? That sent his first final message with Muhammad (peace be upon him) who confirmed the message of the Prophets before him who also prayed like how Muslims pray (bowing down to God and never to any human being), who said Jesus was a Messenger and not a son of God (and Jesus never claimed to be God, that was brought about by St Paul). He confirmed Moses and Noah and Abraham and all the other Prophets came with the same message which was to worship One only and not to associate any partners with Him, He has no family but He sent Prophets.

I'm sorry if this has gotten long but if we look at the science in the Qur'an which was proven years later by scientists, that is a miracle in itself. And then we would look at what else the Qur'an says and that is that there is one God and Muhammad peace be upon him is His final Messenger. And Jesus will come. Good and bad does happen in this world but if we believe in the above and do good we are promises paradise where there will be only good.

If you have a Quran I would urge you to read it and just look at the facts first. There would be no denial in the facts proven by scientists much later. If you have any questions feel free to ask. There is no compulsion in religion nor do I want to offend anyone so please take it with me smiling at you and talking with a light heart.

[Glittter]

Op-I think it's obvious that God doesn't exist but you can still be spiritual. 💑👯😇

[ollieplimsoles]

Damn fine answer Dowager I agree with all

[TheDowagerCuntess]

Sorry - cross-post! Took me so long to articulate that waffle... 🙄

[TheDowagerCuntess]

I don't know that it's a universal yearning for spirituality (many, many people are not spiritual), but rather just a very real and human curiosity about how we got here, and what happens to us when we die. What is the meaning of life, etc.

They're burning questions, that we've theorised on 'til the cows come home, but that we're only incrementally closer to an explanation of, than we were 1000s of years ago.

God is just a way that we try to explain it all to ourselves, before we realised the earth wasn't flat, that we're just one planet of many in a vast solar system, and that we evolved over many years instead of being created in a week.

That's not to say we weren't created by a some sort of being - we might have been, but the story cooked up and penned down as the Bible probably isn't accurate.

All we all really want to know is how we got here - I personally think that's what drives us to come up with explanations, rather than a need for spirituality, per se.

I don't necessarily believe in a 'soul'. But to my mind, having watched someone die, I think it's kind of significant that when a heart stops beating, the body remains. What's not there any more, is the very essence of the person - their personality. Or what more spiritual people might call their soul. That's no longer there, and the face of the body instantly looks different without that essence in it any more.

The body remains, even after death. Where does the personality go? Lots of people will say it just vanishes. And great if you feel so certain about that (though you can't know it).

I think we are slowly and only recently beginning to realise how important our mind is. That it needs care, that a mind that has been nurtured since childhood is in good stead for adulthood. That our minds can get injured, hurt and sick, just like our bodies can. And we ignore that (personally and socially) at our peril.

I think our human minds are way, way more susceptible to hurt that our bodies are. Our bodies are - relatively speaking - much more resilient than our minds. But until very recently, no-one cared about people's minds, in spite of most people trotting off to church every Sunday. Mental health just wasn't even a thing.

It's our minds that need friendship, support, kindness, learning, education, and it's our minds that are driven by a need for spirituality or an explanation of why we're here.

I'm really not explaining this very well as I can't even quite get my own head around it, but this is what makes me agnostic, I think.

[ollieplimsoles]

I like the idea that "that which you seek is the reason for your seeking"; that the yearning that humans have for spiritual meaning is in itself the evidence of spirituality

That is not evidence of 'spirituality' that is evidence of circular logic. Its the kind of reasoning that led women to to burned at the stake as 'witches' in ye olde days..

First, define what you mean by spiritual? Because just ' having a feeling' about something is absolutely not proof of that something's existence.

Your analogy about a baby needing milk and cave people engaging in sexual intercourse is also ineffective in making your point on this, those things are instinctual behaviours evolution has granted us so we can survive. I can't see any evidence that a vague sense of spirituality is essential for human survival.

However, saying that I do think that humans quite possibly have an inbuilt desire to make sense of the world around us, its one if the perks if self awareness. In olden days 'spirituality' played a big part of life. Religion, ritual, superstition all helped people understand things like the seasons, weather, how crops grow, even how countries should be governed. This happened because science had not discovered the things we know now. We need to rely less and less on 'spirituality' because gaps in our knowledge of the world are being filled through scientific endeavor and discoveries. We can now think critically and put these superstitions to the test in a rational way.

A baby instinctually seeking sustenance ect.. They are positive things that aid survival, I can think of examples that demonstrate spirituality can be harmful to someone- religion has and continues to be a means if control, segregation, judgement and violence the world over. Psychic mediums make money from people's gullibility and grief, and dont get me started on astrology.

[NewYearsAoibhe]

I can't help with with believing in the 'person' of God, or the question of why 'he' allows the suffering of innocents.

But I do believe there's more than the physical reality that we know, a spiritual aspect to us and all living things, and maybe a different consciousness / experience beyond the physical one that ends with death. I like the idea that "that which you seek is the reason for your seeking"; that the yearning that humans have for spiritual meaning is in itself the evidence of spirituality, that it's the soul that yearns to understand it all, and that's how you know you've got one.

I liken it to a baby who cries with hunger and knows she wants milk: she doesn't know that her digestive system will absorb the nutrients she needs to survive, she just knows she needs it. And she's not wrong.

Or in the days before humans understood how sexual reproduction works. There were still horny cavemen and cavewomen. They knew they wanted sex but they didn't necessarily understand why it was so essential to them or what it meant. They just knew they wanted it, and they weren't wrong - the species needed it to survive.

I don't think we humans tend to have inherent, driving appetites that are nearly universally shared across human populations, that don't have something real and essential behind them. Humankind has an appetite for spirituality, a common yearning across cultures and history for there to be 'something more' to it all. We don't know exactly why we want and need it, or what purpose our efforts to connect with spirituality serve, but that doesn't mean that we're wrong, or that it's not real.

[TheDowagerCuntess]

I don't understand them in the context of an all-powerful, all-loving God, clearly.

I do understand them outside the context of that...

[Westray]

, I still don't understand premature death, especially of babies and children, and natural disasters.

I totally understand these things. No mystery there.

[TheDowagerCuntess]

No offence taken!

I just definitely know I don't cherry pick, and in fact agree that the vey cherry picking that often goes on when it comes to religion lessens the credibility of both the religion, and the believer.

I mean that none of us know what the truth is, we only firmly believe it, at best.

[ollieplimsoles]

Dowager apologies I read your other posts incorrectly. But I wasn't really accusing you of cherry picking, its something many bible followers are guilty of.

What do you mean when you say I don't know what I believe spiritually, as none of us know. Not one of us. ?

I think some people are actually very sure what they believe spiritually- the confusion is over whether or not what they believe in actually exists!

No offence intended!