If you believe in evil- what does evil mean to you?

[YoureBeingASillyBilly]

Inspired by comments about recent news stories.

I am atheist and struggle (in fact get quite pissed off) when people describe people as 'evil' or having committed 'evil acts'.

To me evil doesnt exist. Its is just as made up as 'god' and used to keep 'good' believers in line. Calling someone evil is, to me, just the same as calling someone 'godly' however when evil is used it feels like its is being used to (understandably) declare a 'difference' between the person saying it and the person it is being said about. Of course most of us would never do such horrible things like have been in the news recently and consider ourselves incapable but we are just as human and in reality as capable (in that we have the ability)of such acts. To call them evil seems to me to be implying there is another force at work within that person that does not live within 'us' (the 'good' people). This is what i struggle with. I think it's an unhelpful or unhealthy way to think of them although i cometely understand the need to declare a difference between 'us' and 'them'.

However, on MN previoulsy people have said that they dont share my idea of what evil is so they are not doing what i think they are doing when they call someone evil.

So i would really appreciate if some could explain to me what they mean when they talk of evil. What does it mean to you?

TIA

Also, i really intend no offence by my comments but understand it is an emotive topic and accept that others will strongly disagree with my opinion.

[BillyBanter]

*nazi not naze.

[YoureBeingASillyBilly]

Billy i was just about to post about nazi in germany. They were nazis because of their circumstances at that time. The biggest factor being their location. It wasnt that all those people travelled from all over the world to germany to do what they did. They lived in germany at the time and for whatever reasons decided that becoming nazis was the best thing for them to do at that time.

[SinisterSal]

No - but every German of the era had a choice to make.
An impossible choice for many, kill or be killed. I wouldn't think it's that that makes you evil.
And even the Nazis had to justify themselves in their own minds so they wouldn't be 'evil'. Back to the dehumanising thing again, many of them had to believe or had to jump through mental hoops to believe that they were actually doing a good thing by 'cleaning' Europe.

Perhaps 'evil' is someone doing wrong, consciously, for the sheer pleasure of it? there is quite little of that about but plenty of harmful acts that cause misery, of course.

[PoshPaula]

I think you need to brush up on your knowledge of C20th crime before voicing ideas about whether evil exists. if we don't have evil as a means of describing behaviour then we don't have good. I know what what sort of world I would prefer to live in

[BillyBanter]

I have no idea what you mean by that.

[lottieandmia]

Yes Nazi Germany could have happened anywhere. But that was my point originally. People are not born to be evil but various circumstances can make them vulnerable to be a vehicle for evil. If the rise of Hitler never happened, many of the people who were hanged for war crimes probably would have lived ordinary uneventful lives.

Obviously the biblical idea of 'the devil' seems like a story. But for me there are benevolent and malevolent forces in the world. Personally I find that sometimes you can talk to someone and feel better just by talking to them and then there are others who you feel repelled by. I think we can all be affected by various energy sources. To someone who doesn't believe in a spiritual aspect of life then that may seem like nonsense but that's how I've always understood it.

[SinisterSal]

But what about Hitler himself?

[lottieandmia]

To be clear, IMO what many people did in Nazi Germany WAS evil but the people themselves were not born to be evil.

[PoshPaula]

billy please don't talk about Sutcliffe killing prostitutes. He killed women. Some (most) worked as prostitutes. Others were cleaners, administrative workers, one was just out of school, one was a student nurse.

[NeverKnowinglyUnderstood]

I will say from the get go that I am a christian.
However I have often mused that I am not sure anyone who is of right mind could kill/torture/mutilate another human being.
And as such I do wonder why diminished responsibility isnt used more in court.
It has to be someone in an abnormal mental state to feel this is ok.

I am a sufferer of mental health issues so not saying all people with these issues are a danger at all.
As for Evil. I think we as human beings label things that are abhorrent and unpalatable as evil so we don't have to try to understand it.

[YoureBeingASillyBilly]

Does evil only relate to C20th crimes?

[letsgotostonehenge]

do you believe in poltergeists?

[BillyBanter]

Very few people deliberately cause hurt or pain to others for pleasure without justifying it either beforehand or afterwards. We all do it at some point. ''Well she was going on about how she loves keeping in shape while looking me up and down so she deserved that snippy comment I made about her fashion sense''.

If we say these people are simply 'evil' then what is there to do apart from lock them up, kill them, hope no one else does it, then be shocked and horrified at the evil when it does happen again.

But if we recognise them as human where something has gone wrong somewhere for them to do this then we can look for causes. And if we can find causes we can work on solutions.

[YoureBeingASillyBilly]

Neverknowinygly. Yes i agree about labeeling as evil so as not to have to understand it.

[SinisterSal]

Poltergeists?

I dunno, think the human nature aspect to this discussion is more informative

[YoureBeingASillyBilly]

Poltergeist? Those naughty ghosts? No i dont believe in them. Why?

[BillyBanter]

billy please don't talk about Sutcliffe killing prostitutes. He killed women. Some (most) worked as prostitutes. Others were cleaners, administrative workers, one was just out of school, one was a student nurse.

Apologies, you are quite right.

[PoshPaula]

Of course not. You need something to base an opinion on and given the topic you raised, the most terrible crimes committed over the past forty years might have been a good starting point. IMHO.

[PoshPaula]

Thanks billy

[SinisterSal]

But we dounderstand it, in a way, don't we? It's because people WANT something (food, sex, ego) and justify how they SHOULD have it (she's rich and won't miss this Fifty pound note, she was flirting with me, she thinks she's above me in the pecking order)

I don't see what else we can understand to preempt another case, if you follow me? There are too many variables in (forensic?) psychology to meaningfully apply them to someone else who hasn't done anything yet. There is criminal profiling but you can't use that pre emptively can you? That's another moral dilemma

I might be missing your point

[BillyBanter]

The 8 stages of genocide are quite interesting.

www.genocidewatch.org/aboutgenocide/8stagesofgenocide.html

Part of an attempt to understand how an 'evil' event comes to be.

We could just say a genocide happened because a group of people were evil. We might say the devil got them. I don't think exorcisms are the answer to genocides.

[YoureBeingASillyBilly]

Im not really sure i understand your point paula. I dont have much knowldege of famous killers or paedophiles. I try to avoid the topic if possible as i find some details of certain crimes quite triggering. I dont think that disqualifies me from asking what others believe evil to be and expressing my own opinion on what evil is (not an opinion on those crimes)

[SinisterSal]

But nobody does say that, Billy. Not any more. It's understood that it's basically self interest and the madness of crowds not the DEvil getting to them.

In everyday talk now The Devil and Evil are colloquialisms for something we don't want to think about. Which i would never criticise anyone for wanting to keep their heads clear from contemplating the shit that surges through the world.

[SinisterSal]

That was addressed to BillyBanter

[PoshPaula]

If you want to consider evil then I think the most obvious and logical starting point is to look at people who have been convicted of heinous crimes that are impossible for most people to understand, and find out what their background/mental state etc. was. The fact that they are famous (infamous) is irrelevant.