Is Jesus copied from an Egyptian God?

[PenguinBear]

I am trying to work out where I am religion wise at the moment and clearly DP and I are not on the same page.

He is adamant that Christianity is made up and has said that The story about Jesus is almost an exact copy of that of an Egyptian God called 'Horus'. I have done some research and it does appear there are many, many similarities. As DP pointed out, Horus came first so how can Jesus be true?

This has really sewn huge seeds of doubt in my mind and wondered what other people's take on it is?

[Italiangreyhound]

There is also a thing about Mithras (as they have also bee mentioned).

pleaseconvinceme.com/2012/is-jesus-simply-a-retelling-of-the-mithras-mythology/

Thegreen you mentioned about Christians and ecology, are you aware of arocha?

www.arocha.org/gb-en/index.html

What an interesting thread, I could not get my phone to click on it do could not reply all weekend! That's why I've gone mad posting, will stop now and stop hogging the thread!

[EllieArroway]

If anyone wants the actual facts of the matter, rather than the Christian take on it, then they are better off avoiding heavily Christian-biased sites like "Pleaseconvinceme.com" and reading actual historical textbooks.

No Christian wants to admit that Jesus was far from original - but he wasn't. And that's that.

[niminypiminy]

If I recall correctly, the 'Great Jesus Debate' thread fizzled out when Ellie flounced, claiming she was bored of the debate. This happened quite soon after it was shown that the sources upon which she was drawing were not robustly peer reviewed historical textbooks but were largely self-published and duplicated on an atheist web site. Is that a log in your eye?

[lucysnowe]

The wiki page is pretty comprehensive:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historicity_of_Jesus

"Virtually all modern scholars of antiquity agree that Jesus existed, and most biblical scholars and classical historians see the theories of his non-existence as effectively refuted."

Jesus' resemblance to Mithras, Horus etc has been pretty much over egged.

[madhairday]

They have indeed been over egged. Parallels made between ancient gods and Jesus have no more root than the Da Vinci Code does in any reality. Take Mithras, for example, most of what is known about Mithras is sourced from drawings. Compare that to the 24,000 or so early manuscripts we have of NT writings, to rigorous Jewish oral tradition and to detailed descriptions in the NT and in early Christian, Jewish and Roman writings.

Sorry, Ellie et al, the whole Jesus Mysteries thing has been heavily discredited and refuted by all but the most obscure scholars who remain obstinately out on a limb to prove their non existent points. Dionysus' 'close parallels to Jesus' were hugely over exaggerated by the authors of the Jesus Mysteries, loosely based on etchings/an amulet from more than 300 years after Christ. And Christ was based on Dionysus? No. No more than he was on Mithras, Horus or any other.

[kissmyheathenass]

If you have Netflix watch the Zeitgeist movie. It is split into 3 documentary-style short films and the first is all about how and why the entire jesus story was plagierised from other folklore/religion. Its fascinating.

[backonlybriefly]

niminypiminy, Since you bringi it up I seem to recall sudden illness contributing to the fizzling out.

The 'Great Jesus Debate' thread exploded the "Yes of course we have records of Jesus'" myth. I doubt anyone really expected Christians to say "oh so it does" but I'm sure it was useful for many onlookers. You'd be surprised how many people think there are Roman records of his birth and execution.

Though there are still plenty of people going around saying that "Of course Matthew, Mark, Luke & John were disciples". Some people just won't learn.

And why don't we have his birth records? all that way to put their name down in the census and then they didn't bother? Oh wait, I remember now. It was because there was no census and therefore no reason to go there in the first place - opps.

Meanwhile on the other thread Christians have established that dragons were real and on the ark alongside the unicorns - wearing asbestos muzzles presumably.

[Italiangreyhound]

Ellie, Hi, hope all is well. Can I ask, you seem to be saying that the myths about Jesus being the same as these other 'gods' is not true Jesus is not a carbon copy of any particular God. You said It's a bit of a myth that he's identical to Mithras, Osiris or Apollo (to name but a few). You rightly say people should read the the books. I am sure they are the best place to get the information.

I mentioned a site that debunks these myths. Pleaseconvinceme - I am not saying I am a big fan of it but I am pretty sure that it is correct.

Not everyone had lots of time to read the original text books, I don't but I wish I did. .

You could also look on dear old yahoo questions, but all sites on web will have the same problem, can they be authenticcted? Even the voted best answer says as much!

answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080204210236AAVHi4a

What these myths seem to do is just unsettle people as the OP said 'This has really sewn huge seeds of doubt in my mind'. I don't think it is wrong at all to have doubts but when doubts are sown by things that are unfounded then it seems best to just try and point out to places where information can be found easily.

PenguinBear how are you doing? Is all this helping you make your own mind up?

[madhairday]

The Zeitgeist film has been solidly refuted. I think there are various videos on YouTube in similar style responding to all the exaggerations and fabrications. One of the authors even quoted themselves in their real name (they used an alias) to back up a point - hardly substantiated stuff. It basically makes points similar to those on this thread, without evidence to back them up - the authors have also been discredited. Not worth watching if you want some correct historical background on mystery religions, ancient gods and their similarities to Jesus.

[EllieArroway]

I would have stayed on that thread if Mad hadn't been unwell and unable to take part (not blaming her, but that's what happened) - since she, at least, is worth talking to even when we disagree.

Mad I don't think Jesus was "copied" & I've made that clear. But there was a cultural idea of how gods worked - healing the sick, having miraculous births, faffing with wine, dying and coming back to life in another realm. This is pretty well documented and hasn't been de-bunked, since there's nothing to debunk. It's how much importance you attach to it that's the issue.

And, as I said, the early apologists were aware of the parallels and had to address them - so you can hardly claim now that no such parallels existed.

The Zeitgeist film is pretty stupid and I wouldn't pay much attention to that. A better film is "The God Who Wasn't There" which is available on YT.

[OliviaMumsnet]

Peace and love all

[EllieArroway]

From Wikipedia........

Dionysus

An "epiphany" God (a god who appears to mortals)
His mother was a mortal
He was a dying & rising god
He was commemorated with bread and wine
He turned water into wine
He was brought up on charges of claiming divinity

Sorry - but there ARE parallels. Just are.

[EllieArroway]

OK, well let me try again.....

Niminy With the greatest possible respect that I can find, I'd like to point out to you that Professors Bart Ehrman, Robert Carrier & Robert Price are all peer-reviewed historians. I think recommending them to Mumsnetters had value because they are accessible, popular, easy to obtain and not expensive.

I left the thread several days after that discussion when it became clear that I was embroiled in a debate with people whose motivations I doubted.

Perhaps in the future, to avoid further conflict you might take the trouble to ascertain yourself of the facts. I always do. Which is why I am so annoyingly good at this

Blessings xxxxxx

[madhairday]

I was happy to keep going with the thread. I'm always unwell, on and off, and did have a couple of days off it, but thought I'd come back to it? I was enjoying it but we were getting somewhat stuck on Josephus

Quoting Wiki on Dionysus doesn't cut it, I'm afraid.

An "epiphany" God (a god who appears to mortals) - no. He was only a semi-deity and one of several children born to Zeus.

His mother was a mortal - isn't everyone's?

He was a dying & rising god - where does this come from? The only reference to any kind of 'rising' is when he was saved as a fetus by Zeus from the ashes of his priestess mother. Hardly a comparison to the death on a cross and resurrection of Jesus Christ. There is no theme of atonement in this - at the end of his life he ascended to 'be with the other gods'.

He was commemorated with bread and wine - no he wasn't. His followers commemorated him by tearing a human or animal sacrifice limb from limb and eating the raw body parts. Nice There is no similarity to eucharistic practise, apart from him being the god of wine.

He turned water into wine - no. This cannot be verified in the myth. He was the god of wine, and it seems the legend is he may have turned coin and oil to wine - a fermentation process, possibly? - Jesus' miracle of water to wine only has the similarity in that it is to do with wine. Nothing more.

He was brought up on charges of claiming divinity - possibly, but that was likely with anyone claiming to be a god.

Dionysus is just one case where mystery religions can be shown to be not so similar to Jesus at all. You're right about cultural legends about gods, but don't forget that OT prophecies regarding virgin birth, father-son relationship and many more aspects fulfilled in Jesus were written down in many cases before any trace of these mystery religions, as well as the fact that any details about them were not collated until after Jesus' time. Interesting that...

[PearlyWhites]

Er no, what rubbish

[madhairday]

Care to qualify that comment?

[backonlybriefly]

I'd be interested in the OT prophecies since the last time I asked someone about them they pointed me to a completely irreverent verse and said "yes it doesn't mention any of my points but I have faith it was referring to that - faith is what matters"

I think it was roughly equivalent to claiming that the song "my old man's a dustman" foretold the rise of a grocer's daughter to be Prime Minister because they were both about 'common' professions.

Oh but perhaps you meant that those other religions had read the prophecies and built their own god around them. That is possible I guess. Hey, maybe the reason the inns were all full in Bethlehem is that every con-man for miles around was converging on the spot to fulfil the prophecy. You could make a good sketch of that. Lots of Marys - some pregnant and some using pillows to look like they were. Lots of Josephs waving hammers and saws and talking about joinery. Like an Elvis Convention.

[EllieArroway]

Mad I know - I should just have waited till you got back. We can resurrect it if you like - think we were getting to the good part.....Paul . Not today though.

Dionysus never appeared to mortals? Not even his mother? Are you sure? According to the myth, he certainly did appear to mortals - he wandered the world trying to get more believers.

His mother was a mortal - isn't everyone's? Erm....Mithras's mother was a rock, so no! These are myths we're talking about,Mad. Most of them did not have mortal mothers. I would say that everyone's father is a mortal, personally, but Jesus had a god instead (who was actually himself) - so I'm not quite sure what point you're making.

He was a dying & rising god - where does this come from? Hera was jealous of him and arranged for the Titans to kill him. Someone called Rhea raised him from the dead. This was after the whole Zeus stitching him into his thigh thing.

He apparently turned all the water in a fountain at his temple in Andros into wine and at Elis filled three empty cannisters with it.

It's also worth noting that it was believed that by drinking wine the spirit of Dionysus could "fill" a person. Sounds suspiciously like being filled by the Holy Spirit.

We also have a vase with a depiction of Dionysus being hung on a tree and being brought commemorative bread and wine.

So, it's all a big 1st century conspiracy, then? Deliberately copied from the OT prophecies (which aren't prophecies at all when you bother to read them) and then cobbled together to confuse everyone when Jesus showed up.

Yeah right.

I'm done for the day. Hope you're feeling OK at the moment. See you soon :)

[madhairday]

Not sure where the source of such info is, Ellie, but would be interested to read. That's the thing about the mystery religions though - they're all mixed up with each other, and much based on images etc, and all over the place re dates - the NT stands alone in its grounding the events in place and time, and the details given. There can be no comparison.

Not too well atm, another bloody infection, thanks for asking. Would like to talk about Paul etc :)

[HolofernesesHead]

Ooooh, the Jesus Debate has resurrected! I do love a good resurrection

My take on the Dionysus thing is a bit different to Mad's (with all due resoect to Mad!). I think that there are definite parallels between Jesus and Dionysus, and, going back to my hobby horse, that it is historiclly plausible that the Gospel writers, John in particular, could well have known the Dionysus myths and therefore 'used' them, esp. in the water to wine story. However, for me, the issue is this: John is a storyteller, a writre who writes 'in order that you may believe and have life'. As such, I am interested in how John may use the Dionysus motifs, and what kind of conclusions to leads onto from them. I have no problem with the idea that John uses aspects of the Dionysus myths to make points about who Jesus is - and the thing that John does, over and over again, is to imply heavily that Jesus is God incarnate, and that in Jesus, God has saved 'the best until last' (like the wine).

For John, it's not just (just!) that Jesus was resurrected - it's that Jesus is the resurrection. It's just not that Jesus can multiply bread in the feeding of the 5000, it is that he is the bread of life. Every 'sign' (or miracle) that Jesus does in John's Gospel is selected by John, as a storyteller, to tell his readers something about who Jesus is, so that they might believe in him. So I can see that John may well be making the point that Jesus is greater than Dionysus, but that point is rooted in John's central claim about Jesus - that he is the 'great I am', Yahweh (which means 'I am') made flesh - so all the 'I am' statements in John's gospel are ways of saying 'Jesus is God, and this is what God is like' (i.e. shepherd, resurrection and life, bread of life, way, truth and life, etc). So for me, allusions to Dionysus don't cause me any anxiety because I can see how John may have evoked Dionysus to say that Jesus is greater than Dionysus, and also to make the point that in Jesus, God has saved the 'best until last' (the conclusion of the wedding at Cana story).

Anyway, in many biographies, real peole are comapred to literary figures - why can that literary feature not be present in the Gospels?

[madhairday]

Hera was jealous of him and arranged for the Titans to kill him. Someone called Rhea raised him from the dead. This was after the whole Zeus stitching him into his thigh thing

It seems there are two versions, depending on which woman he was 'born' from - the Rhea/Titan thing was based on Persephone, the fetus/thigh thing on Semele. Still no comparison to the resurrection, though.

You're right, it's all a myth, which is why it's difficult to pin down - there is so much circulating and interchangeable between the different 'gods'.

I can't find anything about water into wine, only about him being the god of wine, so filling empty vessels and making it from corn and oil. Still, details.

I do find it hard to get my head round the fact that the NT writers employed a rigorous oral tradition, wrote down events only 20+ years after the death and resurrection of Jesus, and yet according to the authors of the Jesus Mysteries based what they wrote on a load of beliefs and practises circulating at the time - to what point? Why? Would this have made early Christianity stand out to the extent it did? It would make more sense to say that they would make something entirely new up. Instead, what seems to have happened is that there are some vague similarities to ancient belief, which only makes sense in the light of human experience, the cycle of birth and death and seasons - and that these similarities have been pounced upon and embellished to a major extent to 'disprove' the existence and/or divinity of Jesus.

[HolofernesesHead]

Mad - sorry to hear that you are unwell again. What a PITA. Hope you are feeling much better soon.

[madhairday]

Makes some sense as well, Holo :)

[HolofernesesHead]

Oh no! Not another head explosion! I'm sorry!