Sex before marriage

[PenguinBear]

One of my friends is almost 30 and never had sex ( nothing wrong with that before anyone thinks I am bring unkind). She has said that as part of her religious views, she is waiting till marriage. ( She is christian).

Is that a belief of all Christians or just some denominations? Would the church not want me there if I joined as DP and I have children and are not married

[marjproops]

Italian thanx. i try. my english isnt perfect! and im white British,(european britsh) not from one of those cultures where the men do what they do (no names mantioned) to their wives in the name of their 'religion' which makes the whole point of ANY religion being blasted and why there are so many atheists. my ex was just a brute.

sorry sieg misread your post there. didnt stress me any more than usual...i live with the memory all the time. thanx for pm.

getting back to OP, nothing wrong with being a virgin and waiting for the right guy. total respect there.dont know if guys feel the same about themselves,, it seems a blight on their manhood if they are virgins at marraige, and the peer pressure (films like the 40 year old virgin dont help).

id be a bit concerned if a man said he was a virgin and over 40 tbh!
the differences between men and women there.

[sieglinde]

marj, I did NOT say I hadn't heard of marital rape. I said I hadn't heard of it being supported by the RC clergy. I'm realy sorry if misreading my post brought extra distress.

Your experience sounds utterly hnorrible, and I sympathise entirely. I've messaged you with more...

[Italiangreyhound]

Marjproops just wanted to send a big hug your way and say how very sorry and I am that you have had these terrible experiences.

For what it is worth Ido think you express yourself very well. I am sure that someone would love you but I am sure you would be very cautious about being committed to someone again.

Just wanted to send you that virtual hug because there really are, as mad says, no words but am thinking of you.

[marjproops]

Thanx, mad didnt mean to hijak thread but a poster said she hadnt heard of marital rape, and I just wanted to say it does exist.

ONLY thing i agree with solidgold on btw!

and my ex claimed to be a christian.

if i ever DID meet someone and loved him enough to get over (pardon the expression!) the rape stuff, tbh, even though Im a 'christian 'christan -IFKWIM id prob want him, if was serious about me, to 'take the car for a test drive' as i dont know if I actually COULD and wouldnt want him to have that ultimate commitment of a binding contract (Im very romantic btw and would like it all properly done) and then regret it if i couldnt get over the traume.

dont know if that made any sense, im not very good at expressing myself.

[madhairday]

marjproops :(

I have no words, what an absolutely awful time you went through :(

But you are valuable, you are precious, you are beautiful. I hope and pray you can move beyond feeling that no one would want you and that God thinks the absolute world of you.

[marjproops]

seiglinde ive had marital rape.

sex is meant to be aggreeable between both people, and my ex raped me, saying it was his 'right' as a husband and that i was ridiculous as his wife it was my duty to have sex with him.

sex. never making love. i was forced to marry him (long story) and i tried to love him but i didnt. i tried to 'do my duty' but he was violent and life-threatening.

[marjproops]

God is much more interested in loving people than condemming. a very good point.

Im a christian, i saved myself for marriage (although being abused, those that did it did not 'save' me) and when ex- left me (he was unfaithful the whole time AND gave me an std cos of it) ive been celibate ever since (not that anyone would want me anyway).

Im very judgypants admittedly, i know, i know, i do take the log out of my own eye first, and there are couples in my church who live together and have dcs. but the church doesnt condemn them, they might not be married but they are commited to each other.

[sieglinde]

SolidGold, contraception hasn't been available for centuries, so it can't have been withheld for centuries....

What's your evidence about marital rape? I mean, how can you possibly know this? I have never ever heard any RC friends say anything remotely like it. It's fantasy writing.

The RC church ALSO began in a climate of misogyny - do you need a history lesson about the Roman empire and gender, perhaps? it didn't create misogyny. It reflected it. Remember that while there were SOME FEW female deities with women priestesses, the MAJORITY of deities were served only by men. Remember that Hebrew priests were all men. Same as the Beeb, then.

Contraception... rape... imaginary friend...pointless capital letters.. Your score continues to mount.

[SolidGoldBrass]

The Catholic Church has been abusing women and children for centuries. Not just by means of rape and sexual assault, but by denying women access to contraception and ordering them to lie back while their husbands raped them. The obsessive focussing on controlling sex is one of the things that drew so many abusers to join up: they thought their imaginary friend would help them keep their dicks in their pants, but that when that didn't work, they would be protected by the institution that considered women and children inferior to men.
The BBC began in a world that was already misogynistic, it didn't create a climate of considering women and children less important than Special Men with High Status.

[sieglinde]

I share your hope, LizzyDay. You're right about On The Buses :)

[LizzyDay]

The male entitlement and misogyny that is pervasive in a lot of religions was also present in the 60s / 70s, of course, you only have to watch an episode of On The Buses to understand that.

Hopefully society is now moving away from it being okay to pinch women's bottoms in the workplace, and the paternalistic religious views which see women as essentially male / family property with no autonomy over their own bodies.

[madhairday]

LittleIllusion :( That is truly shit. I do despair when I hear these stories, but then remember that the majority wouldn;t treat someone in this way. After all, look at Jesus - it's him I follow, not the church, thankfully

[sieglinde]

There do seem to have been MANY abusers at the Beeb. Not just Saville.

And the implication that THEIR very hip 60s and post sexual revolution environment had nothing to do with their acts, while RC pedophile crimes are caused by the church is entirely without evidential support. You're making assumptions based on your own biases. There are millions of celibate clerics and a tiny minority are pedophiles. Roughly the same proportion as in other professions with access to children.

[worldgonecrazy]

sieglinde your post (in context) is saying that the BBC was/is crawling with abusers. It isn't and never has been.

[LizzyDay]

People didn't become abusers BECAUSE they worked for the BBC though. It's just that until more recently, women and children had even less status in society than they do now so it was easier for abusers to get away with their crimes in any circumstance.

A lot of religions are inherently oppressive, and if they are allowed to dictate how society should think and behave, then that oppressive influence will be stronger and more pervasive.

[LittleIllusionMachine]

I haven't been back to church since the priest told me that I was no longer allowed to take communion as an unmarried mother.

And yet, they do mass in prison. Rapists and murderers are allowed communion but I am refused because I've had sex outside of marriage?

Tbh I was seriously questioning my faith anyway, this was a tipping point for me. I am now agnostic.

[sieglinde]

Solidgold said..."It is, for instance, totally unsurprising that the Catholic Church as an instution is crawling with abusers: the instituation is built on sexual dysfunction and misogyny."

Oh. I hadn't realised the BBC was crawling with abusers because it composed celibacy on its staff! And Manchester Music school too - who knew?

There is in fact no link between celibacy and child abuse. None whatever.

[SolidGoldBrass]

Mad: I have no problem with people making sexual choices that suit them, but religions' obsession with controlling women and sexual behaviour is problematic. It is, for instance, totally unsurprising that the Catholic Church as an instution is crawling with abusers: the instituation is built on sexual dysfunction and misogyny. All these superstitions defending rape in marriage, forbidding contraception, blaming women for being raped etc... one of the main reasons for despising religion (apart from the basic truth that it's all a load of rubbish anyway).

[sieglinde]

And as so often, solidgoldbrass takes away the Atheist Bingo prize, by using the words 'imaginary friends' 'prurience and sexual dysfunction' [of priests] 'projected', and 'a sky-fairy' in a single sentence.

Anyone care to use the words remaining? How about 'brainwashed' and 'teachings of science'? Surely someone should mention Galileo, Aids, abortion and contraception soon?

Ok, ho-hos aside....OP, the answer is yes. However, the prohibition on fornication as opposed to adultery/infidelity is relatively poorly supported in the Gospels - Jesus doesn't seem anything like as interested in the topic as some clergy and most atheists are.

FWIW, my own 'brainwashing' never stopped me doing a single thing I wanted to do, though it did give me an empowered way of telling anyone who asked for anything I didn't want to fuck off. I've been RC all my life, and I take seriously the idea that the best sex is part of a loving relationship - but it hasn't always worked out that way for me.

[worldgonecrazy]

I guess it depends on your own personal interpretation of marriage. If marriage is a commitment by two people to become a unit (for want of a better word), and that commitment has to be made before their God, then "marriage" can happen at any time and has no need of formalities. The "marriage" is formed by the genuine love and commitment of the couple.

If marriage is merely a legal contract, based on historical ideas of "ownership", enacted by a minister of whatever-religion, then why should legal status affect whether it is okay or not to have sex.

There is a saying that "A wedding is for a day, a marriage is for life." If, for a moment, we can ignore the high number of divorces - I'm sure most people who enter a marriage contract intend to stay with their partner for life. My own view of marriage is that it is the first description. Marriage is a spiritual commitment between two (or more!) people. They make their own promises to each other before each other and their God/non-God.

I don't think it is just about religion - I have met people who wanted to wait for the right person/marriage before having sex, regardless of their religion.

[specialsubject]

the next 'Defender of the Faith' had a long relationship with his second wife while still married to the first. (Not that I blame him)

the next-but-one lived with his girlfriend before marrying her.

The church of England doesn't seem to be complaining.

Times have probably changed. Don't worry.

[Nicknamegrief]

Generally speaking in our church the men at make a higher commitment to the church at a younger age (18/19) and therefore for them if they have sex before marriage there is a bigger consequence. I've never known anyone to be vilified for this though in recent history. The Bible gives the example of Jesus defending a woman found guilty of adultery (also against the law if chastity) John 8:1-11, telling the men that only those without sin could condemn her.

[LizzyDay]

Is it just 'in the name of it' though, really?

Forbidding sex before marriage is historically about ownership of females, full stop.

Of course men aren't supposed to do it, but on the whole it is the female who is vilified while a blind eye is turned to a boy sowing his oats.

[madhairday]

In total agreement, Lizzy. The abuse in the name of it has been and still is in some places utterly sickening :(

[LizzyDay]

Each to their own, of course.

As long as those who DO choose to have sex before marriage aren't generally looked down on and made to feel like bad human beings - as happened even in this country not so long ago.

And still are in many places - with women and young girls being abused or worse for even talking to an 'unapproved' bloke.