To ask you to all sign this petition asking the government to investigate 9,580 benefits-related deaths?

[BowieFan]

petition.parliament.uk/petitions/170364

The excellent Jack Monroe has started a campaign on twitter and has been collating stories of awful experiences with the DWP, Atos, Capita and Maximus. Some of the stories are heartbreaking.

Please, please sign this petition - at the very least, the families of people who died because of the DWP deserve some closure.

Take David Clapson - former soldier who died of hunger and insulin-related shock. He had been sanctioned for being late for an appointment, and couldn't afford to pay for electricity for his fridge to keep his insulin cold. The coroner said his stomach had had no food in it for upwards of three days. Nobody should be dying like that in 2016.

I recommend you check out Jack's twitter (@MxJackMonroe) and read some of the stories using the #HungerHurts hashtag. It's heartbreaking, but we need to confront this.

[LiviaDrusillaAugusta]

Do you think JM is heading this initiative out of the goodness of her heart? She's doing it to increase her profile as the 'spokesperson for the poor' that she seems to want to be. I don't believe she's doing it for any other reason. Her lack of credibility is surely going to make a project like this dead in the water.

[legotits]

I'm afraid I didn't really know JM until late (because of some trans thing I still have no clue about) in her jump into the spot lights.

I can see how she is trying, it doesn't matter where she came from or what her goal is now she isn't making anyone poor but she is making some truth come out and we are all better informed.

I'd buy her a half.

[LiviaDrusillaAugusta]

A lot of people won't back the campaign precisely because of who is heading it so I think it may go tits up due to her involvement

[legotits]

We can disagree with her and think she's a tit.
I saw her on telly with Naga she didn't even scrub up that's why only a half
She's right and she's trying.

[PausingFlatly]

I'm actually a bit horrified at what you're saying, Livia.

This Friday will be 11 November. Remembrance Day. For those who died not just in the First World War but the Second and other wars.

On that day, perhaps you'd like to think about my granddad, his brother, and his brother-in-law.

They didn't even live in the UK. They and their families were not under attack. They were not compelled by conscription.

They volunteered and travelled across continents to fight Hitler. Because they believed it was the right thing to do. His brother-in-law didn't come: he lies at the bottom of the ocean and left a widow and baby daughter.

They never knew you. They never knew your family who were alive in 1939. But they did this for your family and you. They did it for all of us.

If you don't want to think about my family, go to the Commonwealth War Grave Commission website. You won't run short of people who have "inconvenienced" themselves for you.

[LiviaDrusillaAugusta]

I had relatives who fought/got injured/died in the first and second world wars too. My great grandfather was gassed on the Somme, my grandfather was at Dunkirk. I am fully aware of Remembrance Day but I'm not crass enough to bring it into a debate.

But by all means use it to prove your point.

[InfiniteSheldon]

^^
Couldn't agree more,

[PausingFlatly]

What's crass is making statements like:

"I haven't ever experienced this generosity towards strangers that a lot of you speak about."

"Maybe I have just never seen this altruism that people claim exists. I genuinely can't get my head round it."

Maybe you just didn't know that people joined up for any reason other than conscription or to defend their own immediate family.

But hundreds of thousands volunteered from all over the world because they believed it was the right thing to do; believed they had a duty towards their fellow human beings.

Remembrance Day is a good time to contemplate that.

[PausingFlatly]

Many non-war examples also available. Like the recent medical volunteers going to West Africa to help fight ebola.

I get that you "can't get your head round" such behaviour.

If you're not in the least altruistic, then OK. But a lot of us have rather different values from you.

[LiviaDrusillaAugusta]

I am well aware that people volunteered for the wars but don't let that get in the way of you lecturing me.

Yes the Ebola volunteers are relevant - particularly the one who then brought it home thus causing chaos and potentially infecting a lot of other people and costing the NHS a shitload.

I'm sure you would be happy to lose your job to make a protest, despite the fact that it makes fuck all difference and you just add to the problem. But lots of people wouldn't.

[LiviaDrusillaAugusta]

And please don't presume to lecture me on what I should or shouldn't be 'reflecting on' this weekend - it makes too look rather silly.

[PausingFlatly]

I'm sure you would be happy to lose your job to make a protest, despite the fact that it makes fuck all difference and you just add to the problem.

If you've never done it, how would you know?

Last time I made a stand about something at work (racism towards some of my colleagues: not UK so no legal recourse), the HR manager thanked me and said how helpful it was to have an actual complaint from the shop floor. He'd been getting the brush-off from senior management as they claimed "No one was bothered," and it transpired that having a specific case gave him the leverage needed to fix the issue.

I completely understand that not everyone's in a position to take the risk.

But nor do I go around mocking people for saying that, actually, many human beings do care about strangers.

Why are you so desperate for everyone to be the same as you?

[PausingFlatly]

And in general across MN, I'm fed up with the constant sneering at, and attacking of, and namecalling about, anyone who isn't purely self-centred.

As though posters feel threatened by anyone who fails to subscribe to this "everyone is purely self-interested" model.

I didn't make my stand on the racism to be thanked. And I've only mentioned it - and the volunteers - to rebut your specific claims that nobody is altruistic, and that it only ever makes things worse.

But I'm damned if I'll be made ashamed of it, or let you propagate this "no one cares about strangers" guff unchallenged.

[Pisssssedofff]

This is what is wrong with the world. The unions used to allow people to make a stand against unfairness and look at how the junior doctors were treated when they striked, the dumbing down and removal of think for yourself gene has been successful. Back to xfactor and don't you worry about the system that's taking you up the Arse every day!

[PausingFlatly]

And in the same vein, here's a link to that thread by the former PIP assessor, who left her job for reasons of conscience: AIBU to give people assistance with claiming PIP?

[LiviaDrusillaAugusta]

I'm not mocking anyone or trying to make you or anyone else feel ashamed - I think you need to calm down! I was giving an opinion which you disagreed with. If people are selfless, great, but it is only a minority in my opinion, I am actually entitled to that view. And your attitude really isn't going to make me rethink my views.

Other than JM and the Ebola nurse, I wasn't having a dig at you or anyone. I was talking of my experience, only for you to start lecturing me about Remembrance Day. What a calm and tolerant person you are.

[LiviaDrusillaAugusta]

I have seen that thread - what of it? It's giving advice, not risking your job to 'fight the system'

[LiviaDrusillaAugusta]

And I'm sorry but there is something ironic in challenging someone's cynicism by ranting and accusing them of trying to make you feel ashamed.

But, hey, whatever works for you - just you crack on

[ALYP58]

MORE THAN HAPPY TO

[PausingFlatly]

Glad to see you've calmed down a bit from your assertion last night that:

"if you genuinely believe that people care about total strangers then you are somewhat naive. People don't inconvenience themselves to help others (well not outside of MN anyway)"

As you say, you have every right to talk about your own experience. Just not to dictate to other people what theirs is.

[LiviaDrusillaAugusta]

Naive isn't the same as saying someone should be ashamed of it. I still don't believe that the vast majority of people do things truly selflessly - there is usually something in it for them, even if it is that warm fuzzy feeling.

However you are clearly a little worked up about this and therefore there is no point trying to discuss it with you. Just a tip - speaking to people like that really isn't going to change their minds. HTH

[PausingFlatly]

No, the attempts at shaming are something that I've noticed going on across MN generally. That wasn't a comment on your particular mocking of people as "naive".

It's been interesting (in a horrid way) to watch some of the more extreme anger on some threads at posters who dare hint at other than a "me and mine right now" attitude.

What's intrigued me is not that people describe such attitudes in themselves (no law against it), but the behaviour of some of them to other people who do display altruism.

From denial that altruism exists (even in any complex form), to namecalling and attacking of people (not just posters on the thread) for showing anything that looks vaguely like it.

The attacking may be dressed up in terms like "[sadface] concern about hypocrisy" or Fear Uncertainty and Doubt suggesting the target has Dodgy Connections. Many other tropes also available.

But looking on, it's like watching a person who likes to get drunk and who can't bear it when other people don't drink. The non-drinker may or may not be bothered by the drinker (depending whether they're drink-driving or something). But the drinker seems really quite bothered by the existence of a non-drinker.

There was a thread about the drinker phenomenon a while back, but I can't remember what explanations it suggested.

[PausingFlatly]

Pisssedoff, sorry, I missed your post on the first page saying you too made an ethical decision not to work for one of the disability assessing organisation, because of the current regime.

[LiviaDrusillaAugusta]

Well the angriest poster on here has been you, so I don't agree with your assertion.

I'm not 'desperate' for people to be like me - I honestly don't care.

But if it makes you feel more justified in your attitude to tell yourself that everyone else who disagrees with you is 'mocking' etc then go for it - whatever gets you through the day.

[kali110]

Wow the way this thread has gone saddens me.
I'm sorry if you genuinely don't think people stand up things unless it involves them liv as that is sad.
I've certainly done things to help people in my job when i didn't have to. I didn't know these people, wouldn't have changed my life, but it may have helped theirs.
I certainly don't think i'm 'naive'.