Help needed - petition to support nil cap on lap dancing in Bristol

[JessInAvalon]

Hi all
I've not been on here for a while but now we really need your help in Bristol!

Someone has set up a petition calling for a nil cap on lap dancing clubs as has been done in Swansea.

We have a good number of signatures but we really need more.

It takes less than a minute to sign and you don't need to live in Bristol to object to them.

If you live in Bristol, it would be great if you could share this with your networks on Facebook/Twitter etc.

epetitions.bristol.gov.uk/epetition_core/community/petition/2372

Thanks all
JessInAvalon

[emcwill74]

Ha ha! Buffy I was literally just about to say that as soon as I see a post by lib all I read is the whining of an adolescent saying 'but I like looking at boobies and minge', then saw your post.

Lib when we do give evidence for a culture of objectification of women you just ignore it, like the time I posted a list of comments on the Star Page 3 web page and you tried to claim, totally ridiculously, that they were posted by feminists! Jeez! Great argument there! Even a video you posted of a woman talking about how she doesn't believe in objectification had, as one of its first comments, some bloke blethering on about how he loved her boobs. Know what that is? It's objectification. It's a man not engaging with what she is saying but just seeing has a pair of tits to judge whether he likes them or not. There is no need to provide 'evidence' for strip clubs perpetuating this because that is what they are. Serving up women as bits of meat for men who want to see some tits and arse. That's not the same as physical attraction. It's going to a club to see some flesh. Whatever flesh they happen to have laid on for you that night. (And before you say it, no I'm not denying that what the dancers do is very skilled, but that isn't why the punters go. Or the same punters would be going to gym displays etc to see athleticism by men and women that doesn't involve the woman being naked.)

Nobody is trying to speak for all women. Whether all women agree or not doesn't change what is going on. Not everyone believes the world is more than 5,000 years old. So when I say it is I am not speaking for creationists. Doesn't mean it isn't because we don't all agree.

As for banning things. No we don't need to be consistent, we can look at things on a case-by-case basis. Frankly I wouldn't be too upset if Page 3 were banned, some on here will feel the same and some not. But the NMP3 petition is not asking for that, and the campaigners who set it up are not asking for that. No one is lying. I am one signatory on a petition of 119,000+. I would rather Dinsmore agreed to remove it than it were banned. This isn't at all relevant to what is being discussed on this thread anyway.

So Buffy asks why you are not out campaigning at public service cuts that will negatively affect women if you are SO concerned for women's welfare. You reply with what I assume is sarcasm 'I hadn't thought of that', but then go on to prove that no you hadn't thought of that, by going straight back to talk about strip clubs again. You don't give a shit about women's welfare, all you want is more tits'n'ass. The sole reason you carp on about women losing their jobs (which they don't have, the dancers are not employed by the clubs with full employees' rights to sick pay etc) is because it's an easy argument to latch on to rather than just be honest and say 'I just want more tits'n'ass'.

If it is so vital to society to have strip clubs for the sake of people who dance and do bar/security work at them (as if there are no other bar/security jobs!) then what about the poor men who can't earn money this way? I appreciate there are some male strippers, but not as many female as there isn't the same size market for male flesh. Why aren't you posting everywhere all over the internet getting upset about this? All those men being forced into shitty IT jobs or drawing dole or whatever when they could be getting their kit off and being paid? It's a crying shame! Seriously lib you need to get onto this! I mean if these dancers are literally going to starve without the option of removing clothes for men, what about all the men this must be happening to? Will someone think of the poor men?! Oh no. You won't. Because you don't want pecs'n'buns - you want tits'n'ass.

[FloraFox]

read all that shit in the 90s. New bollocks then. Old bollocks now.

[SabrinaMulhollandJjones]

You're so happy for venues to make money by sexually objectifying women aren't you lib?

Never mind the rest of the women in society affected by women being portrayed as sexual objects to be bought by men. And the occasional 'cool' woman - who you will grasp onto as proof that it is all right by most women

[libertarianj]

emc I have to defer to the fact that lib knows more about feminism than me. After all he has read the complete works of some random person claiming to be a stripper and a feminist posted BTL on a local newspaper. And boobz. That's me told.

have you read any of Brooke's books yet? Or what about any of these?:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex-positive_feminism

[libertarianj]

Not, it has the very unfortunate consequence that eventually, society might stop valuing women primarily as sex objects presented for male consumption.

and do you have any evidence that links lap dancing clubs (page 3 last time) to people valuing women as sex objects? We've been over this numerous times now.

Unless you mean that we should be more concerned about the income of a very small number of women who will need to seek alternative employment than about the life chances of 51% of the country's population?

but the general population of women don't have a problem with lap dancing clubs, which is evident by the tiny number of objections that they actually receive. Also a fair percentage of customers are female too. Yet again you try and speak for all women

Also i thought you guys were against banning things as I was reminded on numerous occasions on the page 3 thread. You were like 'no we are not calling for a ban, just to kindly ask the editor to re-consider it' So for consistency and in the same style, shouldn't you also be asking the dancers to kindly not remove their clothes? rather than pushing for a nil cap?............. or maybe you were actually fibbing on the page 3 thread?

If you are so concerned about women losing their livelihood, why aren't you engaged in protesting about public sector cuts? They affect a great many more women.

Good point, hadn't thought of that. Not only would it effect the livelihoods of the dancers/ bar staff/ management/ security etc it could also effect the councils licensing officers jobs too. Well for starters they would lose the combined annual SEV fees paid by the clubs. There wouldn't be as much admin or enforcement of regulations to be carried out, or the need for any committee meetings as there would be no re-newels if the clubs were all closed down.

[ModeratelyObvious]

Never mind Flora, study the ramblings works of inwino and one day you might be a Proper Feminist.

[FloraFox]

emc I have to defer to the fact that lib knows more about feminism than me. After all he has read the complete works of some random person claiming to be a stripper and a feminist posted BTL on a local newspaper. And boobz. That's me told.

[emcwill74]

Anyone else still LOLing about the man who only posts on MN to argue for more bare ladeez telling Flora to act more like a feminist?

[libertarianj]

Probably because we assume that most feminists are wised up enough about feminist analysis not to think of lap dancing as a choice that is consequence free for other women. and trying to ban lap dancing clubs isn't exactly consequence free for other women either

[JessInAvalon]

And huge thanks to all those who have signed and shared the petition - much appreciated!

[JessInAvalon]

It's in City Hall, by the way!

[JessInAvalon]

Hi all
Just wanted to let Bristol feminists know that the hearing for Urban Tiger (the lap dancing club opposite the Hippodrome) is being held on Monday, 30th September at 10.30am. If anyone wants to come along and sit in the public gallery, that would be really helpful. We were told once by a leading licensing barrister who advised Object (and who now acts for the clubs) that the biggest factor in getting licences refused is the number of people in the public gallery.

There will be a number of people there but all support would be really welcome.

If anyone wants to get in touch to arrange meeting up beforehand, please DM me.

Thanks!
JIA

[libertarianj]

Agreed Bunnylion. I've posted the petition and information about upcoming hearings at the council for lap dancing clubs on the university feminist society page. Got lots of pro sex industry responses which shocked me. I had thought the younger generation would have been more concerned.

Why did it shock you that some feminists believe in freedom of choice and that women should be able to do whatever career they want to , even if it involves striptease? Why make that assumption?

[MoonlightPicnic]

I'd say that the mixture of frustrated male aggression and scantily dressed young girls, both against a back ground of excessive alcohol consumption at your local nightclub is more of a recipe for trouble then a lap dancing club could ever be.

[CaptChaos]

Signed.

[JessInAvalon]

Agreed Bunnylion. I've posted the petition and information about upcoming hearings at the council for lap dancing clubs on the university feminist society page. Got lots of pro sex industry responses which shocked me. I had thought the younger generation would have been more concerned.

If anyone is on Twitter could they tweet the link to Mumsnet Bristol? I have a locked account but did unlock it so I could ask them to tweet it but they didn't.

Thanks!

[Bunnylion]

Signed.

In my teens and early 20s a lot of men presumed that I was sexually available because I was an attractive young woman with a smile. This included fellow students, bosses, taxi drivers, men on public transport and strangers who I encountered walking down my street at night time. Their confusion and embarrassment when rejected was often met with aggression, insults or violence.

I don't want the next generation of women to have to deal with that and all the utterly depressing shit that comes with it.

Strip clubs are one of many elements of society that perpetuate the notion of entitlement to a woman's body. Shutting down these places would be a positive step towards changing the status of women in society and hopefully make life a little bit better for us all.

[jojoanna]

signed

[JessInAvalon]

Thanks QueenofWhatever. Me neither. In Bristol, one is opposite the city's main theatre in town which I think sends out the completely wrong message. Go lap dancing-as acceptable as going to see a west end musical!