telling children awful things

[peachyfox]

hello, I would really appreciate some good advice on how to deal with this.

My DP has a nephew, age 11, who is being brought up by DP's mother after the death of both his parents when he was 8 months old. Gran is the legal guardian.
His father died of an accidental overdose (heroin) and his mother (schizophrenic) took her own life very soon after.
The father's family send cards but never see him and are not in any way involved in his life.

He has not been told the circumstances of their deaths.

We may have him to live with us permanently (DP like a father to him, very good, strong relationship) in the nearish future, and so will need to have some sessions with a child psychologist, to decide if this is the right course. I feel this should be combined with giving him appropriate truths about what happened. He is very smart, funny and quite grown up - but of course, still a little boy.

Any ideas? Should we do this just the family and him, or ask the psychologist to help? What can he understand at this age?

If this unusual set-up rings a bell in RL, I'm relying on your discretion.

In my opinion, unless the parenting is really poor/abusive in some way, it will have little effect on the outcome with respect to developing these kinds of disorders. That's controversial I know but behaviour genetics is my area of research.

I worry about dd. Dh has an extrememly stable, sunny disposition - but - there have been an alarming number of suicides in his family (one just a week ago).

I think having a handy psych known to the family could be very useful over the years.

I'm not sure, Acinonyx, I listened to a programme on R4 (where else!) the other day about the impact of upbringing specifically on schizophrenia and my doc echoed it. My DP imposed his own boundaries and forced himself to work hard at school because he somehow realised at a very young age that nobody was ever going to make him do anything he didn't want to do. His brother has similar intellect but now barely functions except to shop for more drugs.

Of course, schizophrenia is only a spectrum, the term is pretty meaningless. Such a misunderstood disease. Coming from a family of sunny disposition, it's hard to deal with sometimes.

I'm really grateful to all who have posted on this thread. I feel much clearer about our way forward. Love the idea of a family psych.

Sorry missed you researched genetics - that's interesting. Well in this case, I would say in the nicest possible way, the parenting was poor. Loving, well-intentioned, but poor. This is the situation we are faced with somehow explaining to granny.

The other day she told me nephew had been in trouble at school for persistently joking and messing around with another boy, disturbing the class etc. and she had been asked to bring him in for a serious chat with the headmaster, plus the other boy and his parents. Nephew didn't go in the end, didn't want to and she didn't want to force him. She went on her own. I ask you!

Yes I don't really mean that parenting has no impact - but these are diseases that are not entirely environmentally driven. I think parenting affects the details and poor parenting can shift someone susceptible over the threshold more easily. Of course it's hard to say what constitutes 'poor parenting' - espeically in this context. I do think that really abusive parenting might produce disease where there was otherwise little or no susceptilbility though.

It's pretty hard to sum up the nuances on a bb and I usually (very wisely) avoid the attempt!

It's a tough one.

DH's father has a mental illness and because DH knows about it, he has been able to put coping strategies in place (in a way similar to your DP perhaps Peachy) because he recognizes it is a genetic thing and he has the same tendencies...

BUT too much knowledge can be detrimental too - for example, my DS (11!) although otherwise 'normal', occasionally displays signs of the self-destructive behaviour that 'runs' in DH's family.

I can cope with this better than DH can, because he immediately thinks our DS has 'The Curse' and it's all a disaster, so retreats from it - rather than dealing with the situation full on.

Having an 11 year old myself, I am very interested to know if your nephew has ever asked how his parents died. I can't believe he has never thought about this. If he hasn't asked, he will almost certainly have made his own story up about it.

Perhaps with the aid of a child psych you could explore what that story is and go from there?

I don't know how emotionally mature he is, but 11 years olds are pretty switched on. They may not have the emotional language or insight into articulating their feelings though, and this is what you might watch for if he does find out the truth.

That's interesting Merrylegs. DP was adamant his line was stopping with him - he told me when we first met. We're having a baby conceived with a donor and when people assume DP must struggle with this they couldn't be more wrong. He's immensely relieved and happy. It's actually much harder for me, because I see all the wonderful things in him that the world could do with more of. I respect his views though, because it's been all over his life: a father sedated, a sister dead, brother on heroin...

In answer to your question, I don't think he has asked about his mother, but I'm not sure. It's one of the things I'll ask about when the time comes. He's extremely bright and quite insightful about grown-up issues. At the moment though, after hearing the thoughts on this thread, I feel happy to go gently - it's true he won't find out from any other source, so we don't have to prepare for that.

thanks,

I think I'm pretty bright and usually intensely curious - but it didn't occur to me to ask how my parents died until I was 16! No knowing when something might trigger the idea though - could be a tv program - anything.

Merrylegs - we have a bit of that here. Whenever dd shows sugns of being like me temperamentally I panic and then dh rolls his eyes and says I read far too much into everything. She's only 3!! I just hope that we can raise the threshold as high as possible.

hi

i know soemone else who adopted their niece in very similar circumstances

i agree with the other posters who say that you need to find out what he knows/has been told alreday

please don't believe that he doesnt think about it talk about it becsuase he DOES. how can he avoid it every time another kid asks why he lives with his gran?

i woudl ask if there was anything he woudl like to knwo about his parenst

there are different elements to his story and they dont all need to be explained in teh same detail at once

he will already know about drugs, addiction and suicide, in teh sense that they are not new concepts to him

if he were mine i woudl explain about addiction - that many people become addicted to diffenet substances, such as tobacco, alcohol and drugs. they take them to feel good or to help with their uncomfortable feelings. no one is exactly suer why some people get addicted and not others

i woudl explain why heroine addiction often takes over people s lives, and how they can barely take care of themselves, let alone a baby

i woudl explain about overdoses and what happened to his father.

i woudl also explain about bereavemenet and how it can affect soem people so badly, they get depressed and becoem ill. i woudl explain how his mother took her own life

your DN will want to know about teh story and how he fits into it. in teh midst of it all, there may be many positives.

did his parenst love him and care for him as best they coudl? did his mother get pre natal care? were they looking forward to having a baby?

he needs to know that there deaths were NOTHING to do with him, in the sense that he didnt cause it, it wasn't his fault

i woudl stress that drug addiction, depresion and mental health probelms are ILLNESSES. they were sick, not BAD. yes, they maybe made soem poor choices but so do many people

you must also allow him to be angry with them if he wants, he will need time to work through his feelings about it. its Ok for him to say they are stupid or he hates them, for exaplme

you also need to help him work out a "cover story". This is a story he can recite to his frneids or teachers or anyone who asks him

eg my parenst died when i was a baby. no i dont rememebr them, although i have photos. i dont really like talking about it

or " my gran says i dont need to talk about it if i dont want to" etc etc

its ok to not want to tell people but he needs a " polite" response for teachers and other adults or other children who are just curious, not agressive

there is so much i coudl write on this, HTH

I would definitely say you should tell him, the longer it is not explained, the more it becomes something being kept from him, IMO.
My dc's dad died a month ago, due to alcoholism, I told them straight away the reasons behind his death, and how evil addiction can be. I think it sounds like you are doing the right thing getting the support of a psych to deal with it, and that it is best done sooner rather than later.

Not read the other replies, but I would speak to the psychologist about the best way to approach this with him. I think it's a good idea to speak to a psychologist as it's a big change moving from one guardian to another, even if they are close family members. It may be hard for him to move out of his grandmother's house as I presume he will have formed an attachment with her similar to one a child would form with its mother. Good luck and i hope it goes as smoothly as poss

Just sticking my oar in here

I am from the camp that thinks its really important to talk to children about traumatic events in their lives. That is not to say you sit them down and reel off a list of all the horrible things that have occoured.

You talk to children in a way they can understand and you tell the truth. It is important not to fuzzy it up i.e. when people say 'mummy loved you so much she gave you to us' when explaining adoption (for example).

Children fill in the gaps. If you dont give them the information they will make it up.

A child may think:
Mum and Dad are not really dead. No one talks about them so it cant be true. They will come back one day.
Mum and Dad left me because I was bad.
Mum and Dad died. They must have been ill. I might get the same thing if they both had it.
No one talks about my mum and dad. Something really, really bad must have happened. Something really bad that I am not allowed to talk about. If I talk about it I will upset everybody.

I speak to my DS about his sister's death. We have always been open with him and he feels comfortable talking about what happened. Despite all this he still has his own, skewed version of what happened to her.

Saying all this, its hard and it seems easy to put it off. I honestly think the longer it is left the worse it is.

You need a strategy, agreed by all the significant adults in DN's life. You all need to be on the same page and know what you are going to say in answer to his questions.

I think some life story work is really important for this young man. This can be a positive thing for him. This is usually done in the form of a book with lots of photos of everyone in his life. This is a way of introducing some of the less positive things that have happened.

There is so much I could write about this but I think its a subject that needs really careful handling. You need the right support with this. But I do think that this boy has a right to know the details of what has happened to his family. He will want to know and the chances are in the next few years he will do his own detective work. Do you want him to find out on his own from random, careless relatives?

peachyfox - I agree with others about not lying to him. My own mother has lied to me for 45 years about the circumstances of her childhood, the existence of an entire family I never knew, her marriage, the circumstances surrounding my birth and near death, even my nationality and religion.

I found out by accident a few months ago and saw her a few days ago. She continues to lie. It is very difficult to unpick a lie and there is never the right time to tell the truth.

I have a very strong feeling in this that we need an expert to serve as a common link, to talk to us about talking to DN, and to DN about everything.

Coming in to this family as I have I see that none of them have really dealt with losing their sister or daughter or mother. How can you? But there are photos, there are sculptures she did, stories about her. One of the rare things DN said about his mum was that he remembers her hair up in chopsticks, although he cannot really know this.

I don't want to overload DN with facts. What if he asks how? Who found her? Will I get this disease? I fear an avalanche of questions - I would have preferred gentle assimilation of little truths.

Thank you all so much for posting, I'm reading and rereading what you've written and you'll all have helped enormously.

I'm peachy, by the way!

Abetadad, wow that's quite a situation - I think in the olden days they did it that way. Yet my adopted friends fall into two clear categories, those who did know and are fine or just curious about it, and those who didn't know till late, who struggle with it.