Answers to the "whys" for the non-religious - lying, stealing, and the like

[mezzer]

My dd (2y7mo) is full fledged in the "why stage". Most of the time, I try to give her a real, genuine answer and do my best to avoid "just because". But, here's the problem. Last night, we were chatting about how it's important not to lie and she asked, as usual, "why?" So, what is the answer if you aren't religious? Why shouldn't you lie, steal, etc? When growing up, I learned that you don't lie, etc because it's a sin. But, what's the toddler-friendly answer if I'm not going with that line of child-rearing? Any thoughts? Anyone else want help with other "whys" that are hard to answer?

[nooka]

I think CapricaSix has a good approach here. Also might break the "why" cycle at least for a few minutes! Has your dd developed empathy yet? I know it's a relatively late concept for children to understand that other people have feelings, which is why some of this stuff is difficult to explain. I have had some great ethics type conversations with my two, but as they are almost 8 and 9 now I'm afraid I can't remember any details (would have loved to tape them though!)

[pointydog]

"Imagine I'm 3. Why is hurting people wrong?"

You don't like it when people hurt you so you shouldn't hurt other people.

I also spoke to my yoiung children about hurting people's feelings. And I could give an easy example 'You're a poo poo head'. You don't like being called a poo poo head and neither do other children.

There is really no great philosophical issue here with small children.

[ThatBigGermanPrison]

My ds1 said why constantly, it was really because he would ask the first question, either not understand on not listen to the answer, and say "Why" again to get a clarification.
Are you sure she's understanding the answers you give her in the first place? Check her understanding of what you say first, before you get more complex with your answers. Children can have a fantastic vocabulary with less understanding, or a crap vocabulary with great understanding, they don't always develop together.

[solidgoldbrass]

Oh, and telling kids that some invisible fart in the sky will get them if they are naughty is a 'logical' answer to 'why is it wrong to tell lies'?
Superstition is irrelevant: when she gets older you can explain to her how stupid people use it to justify their own unpleasant behaviour and condemn the harmless behaviour of others if you like right now it's easy enough to explain that the world just works better if people are nice to one another, lying makes people not believe you, you don't like it when people take your stuff, etc.

And I always resort to saying 'Because!' after more than 6 'why's in a row.

[Acinonyx]

I think children see the holes in these kinds of simplistic aguments more clearly than a lot of adults. Even a small child will be curious as to why lying = hurting people. It's not really any more of an answer than 'because I say so'.

[TantieTowie]

Sorry - just read first page, didn't realise there was a second, so my comment looks like it came from nowhere - susiecutiebananas - consequences sounds like the way forward

[TantieTowie]

"Lying is not always wrong though. Sometimes the truth can hurt other people more than a little white lie would."

Hmm, yes, that's true - if we always told people exactly what we thought of them that would hurt them too - so would you really tell your friend, when they asked, that their baby wasn't beautiful. Or that their child wasn't gifted and talented.

And then the truth is always subjective, anyhow...

But probably kids don't get those more subtle gradations till they're older - all part of growing up, I suppose (trying to remember from my childhood rather than from DS's experience, he's only 20 mo). Good to have a fundamental understanding that lying is bad and telling the truth is good and then introduce the on-the-whole modifier when they're older, I suppose.

[Acinonyx]

Imagine I'm 3. Why is hurting people wrong? In the end, no matter which way you go, you come to a point where you just have to say 'because it is' which is unsatisfying even to a toddler.

I like the 'do unto others' line best. But even then, you will get a why? Why not do as you please if you can get away with it or others seem to do as they please?

[lljkk]

For an under 3yo, Martianbishop's advice is perfect.

Otherwise, Because hurting people is wrong, everything else (lying, stealing, etc.) comes out of the principle. Nothing to do with religion at all (religion is mostly about death, imho).

[susiecutiebananas]

I was going to echo the point that its really nothing to do with religion. My mum is a vicar, and although when we were little she was a primary school teacher, I cannot remember a single time when she used any kind of religious explanation to our 'whys' nor does she to the grandchildren.

its always been, as i should be, imho, about consequences i.e. if you lie to someone, then that person will feel x,y,z.... or, if you hurt someone deliberately then they will be physically hurt and they will feel sad that you did it to them etc...

If the simple answers just don't satisfy her questions, then I think you just need to explain it anyway you can, toddler speak or not really. In fact, probably best not, as she seems to be happier with a very full explanation, wether she understands it is not important at this stage

[pointydog]

I never made a boig deal of lying.

But the op thinks her dd is lying too much and she wants a reason for why she shoulnd't. The chilkd is 2. I don't see the need to go into any more depth other than, it makes people sad.

[msdemeanor]

I also think people make too much of lying, especially by very small children, for whom truth is a hugely elastic concept and for whom fantasy is reality.

[Acinonyx]

Not if they don't know

[pointydog]

This is ethics for a 2 yr old.

Don't tell lies about people. They will be sad.

[Overmydeadbody]

What's it got to do with religion?

Surely it's not a hard question to answer no matter what your beliefs are?

Lying is not always wrong though. Sometimes the truth can hurt other people more than a little white lie would.

[Acinonyx]

Well, is lying always wrong? I remember the totally Tremendous Deal that was made of this when i was growing up - too much in fact. Because I think many people are at some points economical with the truth for various reasons. Is there such a thing as a white lie? Are there really any hard and fast simple comandments that don't have a number of footnotes and exclusions?

Getting back to the natural world. I think even if dd doesn't entirely understand the explanation - she is satisfied by the sense that there IS an explanation that makes some sort of partly recognised sense.

But with ethics - there is no sense of that sort. You can talk about why 'people' think x and y are wrong and why you think they are (or aren't) and that's about it. It's not that simple at all really. I'm always using that phrase about rocket science - but rocket science really is pretty simple.

[pointydog]

you hurt other people's feelings. They feel sad.

[mezzer]

Pointydog, I don't find it a hard question to answer, per se - it's not nice, people won't trust you, etc etc but not in a way that my dd will accept and not ask Why? again to each of those answers. I'm not saying that I don't know why you shouldn't lie. Just that all of my answers are never enough to satisfy her.

And, yes, Acinoyx, I am a scientist... And, I really did go into a discussion of evapotranspiration with her. And, why it gets dark, complete with a rotating ball, etc... Most of the time, those sorts of answers satisfy her but there are no concrete scientific explanations for why she shouldn't lie.

[SqueakyPop]

I am religious, and the major reason behind Sermon on the Mount commandments is because, otherwise, people get hurt.

[Blandmum]

This is a simple one, 'Because you wouldn't like it, if someone did it to you'

Mrs Do-as-you-would-be-done-to.

Not rocket science

[nooka]

I'm not a scientist (well not post A levels anyway) but have a very inquiring ds. After a while he just gets my thoughts untranslated for age appropriateness. When I get to the edge of my understanding I refer him to others who know more than me, and now he is older to the internet. dd is less analytical, but I do remember the time when they started to say in a pitying way "you don't know about x, y or z"...

[pointydog]

I am surprised that someone should find this a hard question to answer.

[lou031205]

Lying to people means that they can never really know if what you are saying is the truth.

Stealing from people means that you can't be sure that your things will be there when you get back.

I am a Christian, and will teach my children about Jesus & God, but actually, a lot of this stuff is society stuff.