entertaining a new born

[jabuti]

hi there! im not sure if i should be posting this here or in the post-natal thread... but let me know

we have a gorgeous little baby who is almost 3 weeks old and we are starting the gina ford routine with her. i know not everyone likes her method, but its working for us.

my question is... is there anyone out there that have done her routine for a newborn? if so, how do you keep your baby awake? thats the only bit we are having a hard time figuring out, because she keeps falling asleep during the awake times and its soooo hard to entertain a newborn.

[kittywits]

Routines for newborns??? What a load of old crock.
What a lot of contol freaks.
You've had a baby, your life has changed
Stop trying to control it
poor baby

[Yurtgirl]

We had enormous trouble getting our lo's to sleep

Newborns love to sleep as a rule - as long as he isnt keeping you up all night be grateful for the peace and quiet - it wont last!

Trying to keep a baby awake who wants to be asleep is likely to lead a very tired grumpy baby who wont sleep when you ask him too!

[Jojay]

Juuule - what you say is exactly right.

If you don't know what you're doing with a newborn, routines are a good place to start.

I completely agree that they shouldn't be adhered to like glue if it is clearly not working, and yes, they can cause a lot of upset if you try.

IME most people on 'routines' operate on a flexible basis, but it can give new mums a lot of confidence to have a guideline to follow - I know that was my reason for starting off with it. A few weeks down the line, when my ds objected, I had the confidence to go with it, and our own, flexible routine evolved.

[juuule]

Well the shopping trip was just an example as I've heard people on mn say they couldn't go out as baby needed nap.
For me, I could go shopping or whatever, whenever from them being born. They could sleep when out and as I was bf-ing it didn't matter if they were hungry as milk was available whenever they needed it.

[FrannyandZooey]

Haven't read whole thread, but:

"we just started the routine, and it is for a newborn. also, we are new parents, still trying to figure out things"

Yup, that's right. And the people you are talking to are the OLD parents, who have been through all this before and worked out the easiest way to do things, and WE say:

LET YOUR NEWBORN BABY SLEEP

chuck the book and enjoy your dd.

[TheQueenOfQuotes]

why not just let the baby sleep in the pram/carseat and do the shopping at noone anyhow???

[juuule]

I'm beginning to think that different people have differing ideas of what a routine is. Or maybe the same idea but call it something different.
I'm talking about knowing that your baby/toddler is likely to be tired at around noon, perhaps planning the shopping trip before or after that. But if they are obviously not tired then it doesn't matter if the shopping trip is done at noon and the nap comes after. Or if the shopping needs doing at noon and baby is not likely to be screaming blue murder tired while out then doing the shopping and postponing the nap to fit in. That is a routine but a flexible one.

If following an externally imposed routine but only as a guide and not adhering to it come hell or high water then for someone who doesn't really know what to expect from a newborn or young baby I would think it would be a good idea.

I think the problems arise when the routine in the book is taken as being the way to do things and if baby isn't playing ball and there's no flexibility then that when the upset on all sides could set in.

E.g. with the shopping trip. Baby isn't ready to sleep at noon and is expected to sleep.

We had lots of upsetting times with our first child because the midwife had said to make him go no less than 3 hours between feeds and try to make it 4. Looking back and knowing how my other babies fed (I ignored the 3-4hr advice after seeing the effect on first baby), he needed feeding much more often than that at times. So we had one unhappy baby and unhappy mother. So much easier to feed on demand even if it was almost all the time in the evenings in the early days. After the first weeks baby settled into a roughly 3-4hrly feed pattern by itself.

[Jojay]

Hear hear, Krang!!

[krang]

Nah, not true for my baby or my routine, juule. We needed an external routine. Worked brilliantly for us. Why people find this so hard to get their heads around I really don't know. I don't go around dissing other people's parenting choices. Oh well, whatever.

[juuule]

I think most babies fall into a routine if left to do so. But it's a routine that develops to the baby's and family's needs and builds around their lives. Not one that is dictated by an external source which the baby and family try to work their lives around.

[krang]

Routine worked brilliantly for me too, still does at 18 months, never had any problems with milk supply, b/f for nine months very happily, would have gone utterly spare if no routine, 18 month old DS happily having lunchtime nap as we speak.

Have never felt the need to tell anyone who doesn't follow the routine that they're doing the wrong thing, though.

[Jojay]

Ok, I feel the need to explain why the GF worked for me. I'm not saying they work for everyone, but there are mums and babies out there - me included - who have benefitted from these routines.

My DS was a healthy 8 lb 3 oz at birth. He was very very sleepy for the first few weeks. He did not feed at all for 36 hours after the birth.

I was told this was fine, and to follow his lead. Once he was about 40 hours old and still hadn't fed, they did blood sugar and dehydration tests. His blood sugar was low and he was beginning to get dehydrated.

I expressed and cup fed him, as at this stage he was floppy and didn't have the energy to bf.

After a day or so of waking him every 3 hrs to cup feed, he perked up, and we were discharged.

The community midwife visited, and said that as he was doing so well now, I should stop waking him, and demand feed. I did this and he immediately started to go up to 6 hrs between feeds, and was getting lethargic again - it was clearly not enough to sustain him ,or stimulate my supply. BFing went from bad to worse - as he got sleepier he put less effort in. This stimulated my supply less and less, and so it went on.

He took over 3 weeks to regain his birthweight, so by this point I knew something wasn't right.

Then I came across the Gina book. It talked about how some babies don't demand to be fed enough in the early days. It talked about not letting babies sleep through a feed time, so their needs are met. It talked about expressing right from the start to stimulate a good supply, so that when a growth spurt kicked in, there was plenty there.

So much of this seemed relevent to my ds, that we started following the routine straight away.

He immediately fed more freqently, which in turn stimulated my supply. He has more energy because he was feeding properly, and began to wake up more on his own accord. I could stop setting my alarm for 3 am to feed him at night!!!

He continued to thrive, and at about 8 weeks, he decided he didn't want a long lunchtime nap. I didn't force the issue, as I felt that now he knew what was best for him, so at that stage, I followed his lead and our own routine evolved.

I only did the routines for a few weeks, but I truly feel that if I had just followed my ds, and demand fed, his health would have been put at risk.

Once he was awake enough to 'demand' his own routine, then that's what we did.

I never had a problem with my supply, and my ds was fully breast fed until I returned to work.

He's now 8 months, on 50th centile, and the most calm, cheerful baby you could wish for. He also slept through on his own accord from 3 months. He's confident and sociable, and not clingy or difficult in any way - he's a joy to have around.

I know the routines are not for everyone. I know that some babies do not do well on it - my God daughter was one.

But I always feel I have to balance this argument, by saying that for some of us, it really really works!

[Leati]

jabuti,

Routines are not bad but your baby is too young for you to be worrying about that. The first month your baby should wake up for regular feeding (every 2-3hrs for breastfeeding babies) even through the night. Routines are something you want to work on later (my personal opinion). Here is a good article about different ages and routine

www.kidshealth.org/parent/general/sleep/sleep.html

Good Luck!!!

[DaisyMOO]

One of the (many) problems with GF's routines is that the frequency of feeding is often not sufficient to stimulate the mother's breasts and build up a good milk supply. This may not be an issue initially but a few months down the line mum's milk supply can dwindle because it wasn't stimulated sufficiently in the early weeks.

The frequency of feeds may also be insufficient for some babies, who may not actively 'demand' more feeds and (although they may be showing cues) leading to problems with weight gain which often ends up with the mother losing confidence and the baby beinf formula fed.

It's all very well saying, well do it if it suits your baby, othewise don't bother - but even women who go into in with that frame of mind can have their confidence severly knocked if their baby doesn't fit into the routines. Not to mention the problems with milk supply which may not become apparent until months down the line.

I know GF's books and I know her methods having had a number of personal consultations with her. The early months of ds2's life were blighted by this book and he was one of the babies who fitted into the routine (at least to start with).

[Jojay]

Some babies do not suit the routine, and should not be forced into it.

Some babies suit the routine, and if yours is one of them, then go with it. The book would not be a best seller if no babies suited the routine.

Jabuti, good luck with whatever you decide.

I'm going to bed now.

[TheQueenOfQuotes]

thing is with things like the GF "routine" - is that parents think they're going to have an easier time with their baby because of it...but unfortunately (or should that be fortunately ) babies can't read and end up being forced into a routine that isn't natural for them.

Ds2 used to wake for a sleep and then wait until just before his next one to feed. Ds3 wakes up, has a feed, stays awake for a while (up to 2hrs these days or as little as 1/2hr) and then wants another 1-2oz of milk.

It truly is much easier to go with your baby's routine - it's then easier to "tweak" to what suits you a little later than if you try and "force" one onto them.

[Jojay]

QoQ -Fine!!!! We all have our own views.

What I disagreed with was JodieG saying'

'every 4 hours isn't normal for a newborn and babies o get used to it, which is why GF routines appear to work'

That's not what GF says, and that's what I take issue with.

[pooka]

I have also read it. And tried with dd . And then gave it to charity, which given my disgust with it wasn't perhaps very charitable.

[TheQueenOfQuotes]

and if they have read it and researched it - and still think it's utter nonsense???

I've had 3 totally different babies with regards to settling into routines....and you know what I'm positive the GF wouldn't have worked for any of them.

[Jojay]

I have no problem with anyone's views - we all do what we think is right for our children.

I just disagree with people criticising a method without researching it first.

I don't know much about the AP concept - we started on a routine and ds was so happy and settled I had no reason to look any further. From what I do know, the AP concept wouldn't suit me or DS, but I'd never run it down, because I don't know enough about it.

IME, people don't stick with a method that doesn't suit their baby. No-one wants a miserable baby. Routines do suit some babies, whatever people say, and some just don't. IME parents learn to adapt to what their baby needs, and don't try to push their baby down a route that clearly doesn't suit it.

A bit of gentle encouragement on the parents part to 'tweak' a baby's behaviour is not the same as ignoring a baby's needs in favour of 'what the book says'

[TheQueenOfQuotes]

twois - i HAVE read the book - and it's utter nonsense!

I'll also never forget my cousins daughter's naming ceremony - LOADS of people out in the garden, beautiful sunny day, DD was about 9/10 months old IIRC (perhaps slightly older) . It was "time for her nap" so they whisked her off upstairs to sleep......and guess what - she wouldn't do it there was FAR too much going on downstairs and she simply wans't tired.

About 1hr later they finally gave up - lamenting the fact that she would now be "out of routine" (actually she was fine - had her next feed as normal and slept well that night)

[JodieG1]

Personally I can't stand rountines for babies, sorry but that's the way I am, I subscribe to the Sear's method and that's far removed from GF. The woman has issues as had been mentioned before and discussed in the tv programme.

To be frank, it's bollocks that an "older" baby "should" go 3 hours between feeds, my ds2 needs feeding a lot more often than that and so did the other two and it's normal. When a babby is rooting and trying to suck milk from their fingers it becomes obvious they're hungry and as I said, early hunger cues (if people know what they are) are better to follow than the later ones. No point waiting until baby is crying with hunger to feed it or eek out a few more minutes. I saw a video online showing early and late hunger cues and it's interesting.

[ELR]

just take the slight structure of her routine and ignore all the rest!!
with dd1 i just did what i thought best and it worked when i had ds i thought i would read her book out of interest and discovered i had sort of used her routine without all the weird bits,
all babies eat then stay awake a bit then sleep, then you get some time for you

[Jojay]

Jabuti, twoisplenty, I'm with you. Some people on here clearly haven't read the GF book, as at no point does it put a 3 week old baby onto a 4 hourly routine. 4 hourly feeds come much much later.

It also says that of course if a baby is genuinely hungry, you should feed it. I did the routine too, and there were times, such as during a growth spurt, when it went out the window.

But I do agree with the point GF makes, that if an older baby cannot regularly go 3 hrs between feeds, then look for the reason why.

I'm not a Gina addict - my baby was very sleepy for the first 8 weeks, so I followed her routines to ensure his needs were met. As he got older, his own routine evolved, and we do something that suits us both now.

But I CANNOT STAND IT when people slag of the Gina method without reading it, or making any effort to understand the principles behind it.

Jabuti - if you feel it is working for you and your lovely baby, you stick with it!!!!

[JodieG1]

twoisplenty - I didn't think the parents looked incompetent at all, in fact they looked distressed at seeing their baby crying and not being able to give it what they wanted. Also the father who had to give the last feed before bed wasn't supposed to give. eye contact and that was upsetting too, bonding occurs through eye contact too and so it's beneficial and he felt wrong not giving it to his baby. So odd advising no eye contact for a baby