Newborns sleeping outside alone

[Wonderflonium]

I'm expecting my first child in winter. I live in Denmark. My boyfriend is a Dane and we live fairly close to the in-laws.

Danes still put their babies out to sleep in cots, in all weather. They put them out in a pram in the garden/on the balcony, and they leave them outside shops and cafes.

I am not keen on the practice for a lot of reasons but mostly because the baby is alone. Before I got pregnant we came up with some ground rules:
If the baby is supervised, it can sleep outside.

The in-laws were talking to us about our choice of pram and the MIL made a comment about "well, as long as you can put the baby outside to sleep, it's fine" and I waited for my boyfriend to let her know what we are going to do. He just looked awkward. The MIL could see the awkwardness and came up with a few advantages:-

1. The baby becomes more robust
   
2. The baby sleeps better
   
3. It's our culture
   
   But the boyfriend said nothing. We had a chat about it and I told him about the guidance that babies don't sleep alone until 6 months. I'm not keen about leaving the baby outside AFTER 6 months but at least it'll be summer.
   
   I think the first two advantages are red herrings and, sure, it's their culture but so is drinking schnapps at breakfast on special occasions but I don't partake in that, either.
   
   Clearly, I need to kick the boyfriend up the butt so he can make it clear to his mum how in a lot of ways the baby is going to be brought up Danish but in some other important ways, it's going to have a British upbringing. But he's so conflict-shy, it's unreal.
   
   Any words of wisdom?

[corythatwas]

Agree that the OP and her dh need to maintain their own boundaries here. However, it is a complicating factor that the OP has married a man from another culture, and is actually bringing the child up in this culture. So it is very likely that the dh's ideas and boundaries will be different from hers and compromises will be required regardless of the IL's. It is all very well to say IL's can't treat them as their own children- but they are actually the dh's children and he will need to have a say.

Speaking as someone who moved in the opposite direction, from Scandinavia to the UK, to have children with an Englishman, I have found openness and willingness to compromise absolutely essential. If I had just carried on treating dc as my Scandinavian upbringing had told me was best for them, life would have got very difficult for all of us. Otoh there are some ideas I really do believe in and would have found it very difficult to compromise on. And there were some ideas that actually sat quite well with dh's generally philosophy too. Some things we did horrified the HV, other things we avoided doing because it would have clashed too much with local community ways of doing things, some things we did a certain way because I felt strongly about them, others in a certain way because dh felt strongly about him. But the foundation of it all was that our dc were brought up as part of two different, equally valid cultures.

[Natsku]

Same in Finland daisy the fence round DD's nursery is just waist high, the children can climb over it and anyone could reach over and grab a child which worried me at first but I soon found out it never actually happens and none of the children have climbed over to escape (though mine has occasionally climbed back in because she didn't want to leave!)

[RiverTam]

When DD was tiny I used to visit my mum often. If she'd fallen asleep in the pram I would leave her in my mums back garden rather than risk waking her by bumping the pram up steps.

I must say it never occured to me that there's was any risk attached to this.

Oh, and anyone can find anything on the Internet to back up their argument, so I'd stop doing that right away, it doesn't really prove anything.

[BertrandRussell]

"So get ready to set your boundaries, to say no. To be firm, to be disliked, to be strong in the face of pressure and disapproval. At the start you can say 'I'm not ready for that yet'. And the over time make clear not yet means never."

While always keeping in the back of your mind that they may have a point. One of the most important attributes in good parenting is flexibility. An anecdote. My mother was always dubious about babies spending a long time in slings- she felt that it was too restricting and that they needed to be able to stretch out. I was vindicated by my dd who loved the sling and practically lived in it, when she wasn't co sleeping. When ds came along I assumed he'd be the same, but he was incredibly unsettled. One day, just to prove mum wrong, I laid him down. He instantly stopped crying, stretched out as far as he could and fell asleep.

So try things. I've never yet met a bay who didn't sleep well outside. Obviously, don't do anything dangerous. But sleeping in a pram in a safe place outside isn't dangerous. Keep an open mind. Don't say no for the sake of it.

[GoodLuckTime]

It doesn't really matter what the others are going to be.

It more about establishing, with your DH that the two of you need to support each other in your choices, especially to others, including his parents, even if you don't always agree. This is especially important in those first few weeks.

And with PIL it's about establishing now and carrying on being firm about boundaries. If I were you I'd be talking to PIL now about some of the cultural differences you see. To try to open them up a little to the idea of there being different ways of doing things. I read French Children Don't Throw Food which helps me understand what their expectations are (although that book glosses over how that achieved, the shouting, physical punishment and control, control, control that is present in a lot of French parenting). I wish I could give my PIL my favourite parenting book to read but it is not available in French and their English is not good enough to read it In English.

My French isn't great either so the language barrier is a factor. This cuts both ways: I can ignore things I don't want to agree to, and the detail of their strongest criticism passes me by. But also, I'm not able to explain to them why I'm doing what I'm doing. So they (full believers in control and micro management) think I'm lazy and irresponsible when really I'm giving DD the Space to work it out for herself. But there again, if I was fluent, and I could explain what I really think we might have such a clash we'd never recover from it. At the moment DD has strong opinions (being three) and they hate that I respect and defend her choices (what the wear, games to play) rather than force her to do what they want. I spent a lot of our last visit saying 'I'm sorry, she doesn't want to' or 'she's chosen this one'.

So get ready to set your boundaries, to say no. To be firm, to be disliked, to be strong in the face of pressure and disapproval. At the start you can say 'I'm not ready for that yet'. And the over time make clear not yet means never.

What are they like in general? Do they back off if you say no thank you? Especially in the first few weeks I'd consider getting someone from the uk to come and stay to provide a counter balance. Has to be someone you love and trust though.

Know this is something that could take several years to establish. And may not be good. I'm now accepting that PIL will always think they could do it better and think I should just hand her over! The upshot is a) I don't trust them b) (now) DH is frustrated too as he's got his confidence and knows DD is thriving, so he draws the boundaries and tells them to back off. C) at the moment DD doesn't like them that much because they treat her as a doll, wanting to impose their will on every detail, never listening to to respecting her wishes.

We're in a run of spending more time with them than usual. I am trying to manage the next couple of visits better by emailing in advance to manage expectations. So what's her routine, ideas of things shed enjoy doing with them, what they should stay out of etc. Last time I left this to DH but he doesn't offer up much detail and MIL loves detail. I also I try to find small things where it does work to leave them to it to do it their way, and then back off at those points.

We hoped they'd get to know us and DD better with more contact. But overall It's not working, and PIL continue to make it clear they think I'm doing most things wrong (although DD is thriving) so from now on we'll keep contact to fewer shorter trips.

Having said all that, you may come to an understanding and be grateful for their support. For me, the crucial factor is whether they are respectful and accepting of your and DHs choices even if they'd do it differently. My PIL are not and I now realise never will be, but yours might be different.

[Daisyandbabies]

That's a good point, Cory.

OP, do you mean in a safe place outside, i.e. shut in the garden, or outside the house on path for all to see?

I was shocked in Oslo; I saw kindergarten children in double prams asleep under trees dotted everywhere, with the teacher on her phone and very far away from some of these kids. Imagine that here Some kindergardens also have really low walls/fences so anyone could easily just lift a child out, from the street. Unlike our nurserys and schools, the public is also free to use the their outdoor facilitlities such as swings, etc. So different to England

[LonnyVonnyWilsonFrickett]

I was born in 71 and regularly put outside for a sleep. My DS often fell asleep in the prom and I would have loved to have been able to wheel him home, pop him in the garden and then make myself a cup of tea, but we lived in a flat.

My aunt's favourite saying wrt babies is: fresh air is as good as a feed.

[Natsku]

Exactly cory they have a different perception of risk, and a firm belief in the importance of fresh air. When I was pregnant the midwife gave me a government leaflet all about pregnancy and the first year for a baby and it included advising to put them to sleep outside (from newborn for summer babies and from two weeks for winter babies).

[corythatwas]

The truth is that our perception of danger has nothing to do with actual danger but more to do with what we see as a normal part of our daily routine. We are happy to take quite big risks to do something that seems normal to us, but tend to react strongly to very small risks what we don't perceive as "normal".

Most British parents wouldn't dream of putting their child at risk by sticking them in a pram outside, but would happily put the child in a car to drive to a supermarket just because it stocks a slightly better brand of chocolate or cheese than the local corner shop- despite the fact that we all know that car travel is risky. The wider selection of brands in the supermarket is not necessary for the child's wellbeing, but it is something we are used to as our daily routine.

In Scandinavia, people are also used to putting children outside- and more than that, they actually believe that fresh air is essential for a child's wellbeing.

[Mybeardeddragonjustdied2016]

My dd mil told her she put her ds out in the yard to sleep in the pram as the sun shining made him shut his eyes and go to sleep!!

[sentia]

There is no perfectly right way to bring up a child. If there was, the human race would have died out long ago. As far as I can see the basics are: Don't drop them on their heads. Give them lots of love. Feed them when hungry and change them when dirty. Let them sleep as much as they want to. The rest you can pretty much make up as you go along!

It's lovely that society as a whole cares enough about the next generation to want to actively get involved in childcare decisions, but that doesn't prevent a load of the advice being tripe.


The above is more or less my standard speech when people try to tell me how to look after DD!

[Wonderflonium]

Goodluck yes! Just that! It's not the sleeping outside as such, it's the lines in the sand. This is one I see coming but what are the other ones going to be?

Cory It's not that it's regular, it's just that it is non-zero but everyone acts like it never ever happens. If there were that many kidnappings of children in the UK from prams, the DM would be up in arms. It's just weird. (I think the lack of hysteria is refreshing but it annoys me when Danes confidently tell me kidnapping just simply does not happen)

[corythatwas]

Looking at that Ekstrabladet article, the abduction of children hardly seems to be a very regular occurrence, given that so many children are left to sleep outside on a regular basis. Actually, I might have guessed that without reading the articles (yes, I read Danish) from the fact that it made the newspaper in the first place.

You don't get massive headlines about uninjured children (let alone unkilled) from a regularly occurring type of accident, like somebody driving into the parents' car.

I've never dared to tell my Swedish mother that my children have been in two car collisions. Both very minor and no serious injuries, but she, being a non-driving fanatic, would take it as a sign that I am totally irresponsible for letting them go to school by car rather than walk them there. The incidents certainly didn't make the paper, no paper would be in the least interested. Yet the injury factor was exactly the same as that of little Tina in the Politiken article.

[Natsku]

If you don't want to do it then best just to ignore your MIL but you might find you change your mind about it. I live in Finland where they do the same as Denmark and it wasn't long before I saw the advantages of it - DD slept wonderfully outside and I didn't have to worry about accidentally waking her. They have battery-powered baby monitors that go in the pram so you'll hear when baby wakes up (or if a wild animal gets in there... Which is very very rare)

[Daisyandbabies]

My husband is Norwegian but we live in England. When in Norway, I told him under no circumstances is he to leave the baby alone outside a shop. He told my mother in law and that was the end of it.
In regards to sleeping outside, which they all seem to do in Norway, I didn't have to worry much as they live in an apartment with an indoor, communal entrance. I let both of mine sleep out there in their snow suits as along as the main door was shut and the apartment door was open. In short, no, I would not have my babies left alone sleeping outside. Might be part of their culture but I'm not comfortable with it and I'm their mother so tough

[BertrandRussell]

My Ds is 15, and my Spanish family still occasionally use him as a stick to beat the NHS with, and wonder why I didn't sue someone for negligence. Simply because I was allowed to give birth vaginally to a 10.6 baby- even though I had a three hour labour and only slight tearing. Apparently inshould have been forced to have a c section.

[RedWineSmile]

Mine slept outside for naps during the day. If I had been out for a walk, and they had fallen alseep, I'd just put the pram round the side of the house, outside the kitchen window. I'd see the pram start to move a bit when they woke up. Tucked up nice and warm, in a sheltered spot, the sound of birds, or the wind in the leaves, or even the rain on the raincover. I always thought it was a nice thing to do! Changing their sleeping environment, and getting them used to different ambient sounds etc frees you up from always having them go down for a nap in the same way every time.

[GoodLuckTime]

OP, I don't think this is about the leaving outside so much as feeling anxious about the different set of cultural expectations your PIL and the country you're living in will have.

Know this: there is no stage of life about which other people are more opinionated and bossy than birth and early mothering. Even living in your own culture you will get bombarded with unsolicited advice and instances in how you should do it. Ways to give birth, breast or bottle feed, cosleep or in own room, sleep train or not, wean or not are the biggies. It doesn't stop though. DD is three now and it's all about advice on timing and techniques for potty training, whether to start extra circular activities, whether to discipline and control or be child led.

Having a family mixed from two culture heightens this. DH is French and PIL are aghast at some of our (my) choices. I find the culture clash makes it easier to see that most of these decisions are cultural and don't matter that much in the long run.

And above all you have to do what you want and believe in.

Still can be hard at the start and somehow even well meaning people around your seem to sense this and apply the most pressure then.

Others even, close family members, friends, can be surprised or hugely disapproving of your choices even if you're all from the same culture. I've got a friend who had and elective c section then got a night nanny in from birth. I had a less interventionist birth and breast fed until she was 2.5. We've never discussed it but clearly come from different places. I remember and regret more the friend who raved about her tough birth so much she frightened my DH out of being supportive of home birth, and MIL who originally pressed hard for us to travel to visit them in France two weeks after I'd given birth and then when we got there told me to start bottle feeding and appeared in out room at 5am suggesting she take the baby.

PIL and especially MIL have no concept that different approaches to parenting can work equally well (or even better). Everything that I do that isn't the French was is wrong. She pushes hard to have DD on her own a lot so she can do it 'right'. On our most recent visit she interfered in potty training to the extent that her and DH had a row. She seemed to think we were ignoring a deadline to get it done (we weren't). SIL (DHs Dbro's wife) tells a story of MIL shouting THESE BRITISH DOCTORS KNOW NOTHING! When Sil allowed her DD to eat something (with her doctors approval) that MIL disapproved of while recovering from a gastric illness.

Find your voice, yes to smile and nod, but also to say 'no thank you' or just 'no, that doesn't work for me'. Realise you may have to go around this with your DP a few times. You are becoming your own family unit. You will make your own rules. They won't be identical to your PILs and sometimes he will need to back you if they disapprove / interfere. DH is much better at this now!

[MrsJayy]

Was the norm in the 90s we lived in a flat so only out when i was there but if i was at mums or mils they were in the garden wrapped up but in the fresh air i did stop leaving the pram outside shops though

[Assamassa]

I presume you mean in the daytime?? Surely!

[BertrandRussell]

Out of interest, why are people so horrified about babies sleeping outside?

[insan1tyscartching]

Mine slept outside all year round too from their first days. Only kept them inside when it was foggy. They slept better outside. I didn't stay outside with them, the garden is secure, I'd just listen for them waking.

[jesterkat]

Mine both go out in the yard in the pram for naps. Everyday, all year round, unless its foggy. All wrapped up in the big silver cross pram. I have a cat net which goes on.

[yeOldeTrout]

Unless MIL is minding your baby, then what does it matter what she thinks is happening?

btw, My babies slept outside, in winter, in UK, 8-16 yrs ago. Not as a policy, just convenient if they fell asleep in the pram on a walk. They woke up & screamed if I brought them indoors. Outside was a kindness to all.

[PumpkinPi84]

My LO used to fight his naps but I found napping outside in his pram worked the best. Others babies prefer to sleep on someone. You'll have to wait and see what your baby prefers! We have an enclosed garden so I would either park him up where I could see him from inside or occasionally I'd balance the baby monitor in the window sill so I could hear him while I grabbed a shower. Try not to let the MIL bother you too much, just bite your lip and wait to see what works for you and your baby.