What is the point of Halloween?

[Tigermoth]

Christmas - good cheer/ special family time/ winter solstice/ pagan ritual/ christian festival etc

Easter - beginning of spring/pagan ritual/ christian festival etc

November 5th - gunpowder, treason and plot/beginning of autumn/ fireworks etc

Halloween - the witches ghosts and ghouls come out/ And?

Is there any good reason to celebrate Halloween, and if so, how? When I grew up, no child played trick or treat or put on fancy dress. I just cannot get my head round these activities. For the sake of my sons can someone please explain.

[Bloss]

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[Robinw]

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[Bugsy]

I think Halloween is one of those mish-mash traditions that has very little to do with spirituality of any sort these days. Judging by the shops it has turned into a commercial venture. I don't really think that letting your kids dress up, bob apples etc on Halloween can be seen in any different light to letting them read Harry Potter.
I personally take issue with trick or treat because I don't like the idea of children out in the dark knocking on strangers doors and I like even less the idea of little old ladies being frightened by aggressive youths, but that is a different issue really.

[Bells2]

Totally agree with you Bugsy on your twin objections to Halloween.

[Jodee]

Inky, well said - you hit the nail on your head with your quote from The Usual Suspects. I think some Christians today need to 'wake up and smell the coffee' and realise that evil spiritual forces are no joke. To quote from Ephesians 6:12 - 'our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rules, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms'. Satan is not just a jokey figure in a red outfit with horns and a pitchfork. The irony is that modern day Wiccans/Satanists etc. are all too aware of what they are dealing with and are taking advantage of Christians' naivety in these matters.

I'm also not a Catholic but think it's important to have a basic understanding of other religions; I don't think it's right to try to share one's Christian faith with, eg. a moslem without bothering to find out what they believe in.

Sorry, Tigermoth, that this has all gone off at a tangent!

[Marina]

Having read this fascinating debate I have come to the conclusion that it is possible to be an active member of the C of E and have a pretty shallow understanding of the Christian misgivings concerning Halloween. Thanks to all for an illuminating discussion. I have never really been impressed with Halloween, mainly for the child (and adult) safety reasons articulated by Bugsy, but also because it seems yet another opportunity for shops to flog low-quality rubbish.

[Scummymummy]

Well, I'm off to purchase my pumpkin. I liked your Mum's pumpkin decorating ideas, Jodee, so I've decided to model this years lantern on the mumsnet smiley face

[Tigermoth]

Totally fascinating. So much I didn't know or only half knew. Thanks for all the religious insight and, Bugsy, thanks for that detailed information.

I attended a Baptist sunday school and I remember being told that even reading horoscopes was not a harmless pastime because it was a way of letting satan into your life. Supersition of any kind was an evil because it could blind you to God's truth. Our church ignored halloween and in the 60's, American commercialism had not taken hold in my home town. I only began celebrating halloween when I grew up and the punk/goth era began. Everyone was wearing black and purple anyway.....

If it was just me, I'd give today's version of halloween a wide berth. I do think it has evil undertones but mostly I object to it because I think it is a commmercial and cultural invasion, and I don't want to feel like an extra in a American horror movie.

However it's not just me. I don't think a smiley-faced pumpkin will harm my children - LOL at your suggestion scummymummy. And, as Bugsey says, if you say no to halloween you have to say no to Harry Potter. A bit OTT for me.

However I do want to give my children a valid reason for dressing up etc. I have real qualms about saying the spirits are meant to be close on halloween. At the back of my mind is the idea that there isn't a big difference between superstition and fanaticism.

Halloweeen - frightening away spirits/ burning witches/ superstition/fanaticism/ the spanish inquisition/ fundamentalism/ bin laden. Is there something especially tasteless about celebrating Halloween after September 11th?

OK you might be able to fashion a similar extreme equation with Easter or Christmas, but at least these events have a general message of hope and rebirth.

Anyway, having read and thought about the comments on this board, I'm going to ease off celebrating the more ghoulish aspects of halloween, concentrate on the pumpkin faces, apple bobbing, treats, jokes not tricks, and dressing up, but with no fake blood or the more extreme masks. I'll say to my son that the meaning of halloween stems from some old, mostly forgottten celtic traditions. What we're dong now is saying goodbye to summer and BST. All the halloween sweets, games and parties are a way of cheering us up as we put the clocks forward and hour and say hello to the long dark evenings of winter.

PS: does anyone know what date we change the clocks this year?

[Littlejo]

28th October.

[Bugsy]

Tigermoth, I'm glad we've been of help. It has been interesting to see people's views on something I have never given more than a few moments thought to before. I think the most important thing is that your kids know what you think. If you think it is a bit of fun but alot of old nonsense, then let them know that. Afterall, lots of Jews, Hindus and lots of other religions celebrate Christmas in some way even though it has absolutely nothing to do with their beliefs, without it threatening the central tenents of their beliefs. Also, all sorts of people celebrate Pancake Day (or Shrove Tuesday) without even knowing why. I suppose it is just acknowledging the heritage of the culture you live in.

[Suew]

I'm with Bugsy on the objections to door knocking but love the pumpkin lanterns (and pumpkin soup) and apple bobbing, etc.

I saw somewhere this week the question - Should we cancel Bonfire Night because of Sept 11?

I love Bonfire Night. In fact, I love this time of year. In our family it's a run of birthdays and special events all the way through to Chirstmas with something happening almost every week all the way til mid-Jan, in fact.

As soon as the air gets that first autumnal whiff of bonfires and foggy mornings, I feel the blood course through my veins in anticpation of the fun ahead.

We go to a big Bonfire and fireworks organised by the local scout group, with St John's and the fire brigade on hand. To get there we trudge for about 20 mins down a lane and through fields - it's great fun for the kids holding their torches and tripping along in the dark.

[Bloss]

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[Jodee]

Hi Bloss, hope you have settled in OK back down under. I really liked the message in your last para, especially the last sentence. I'm sure when we all get to heaven we will have a good laugh at ourselves and what we said and did down here! God's no doubt got a list as long as your arm of all my shortcomings and where I put my foot in it big style, but I'm very grateful he's 'wiped the slate clean' and forgets all about them!

[Harrysmum]

My dh is also from NI and a brethren background. I too was surprised at the focus on Hallowe'en over there (and the complete no mention of Guy Fawkes night). As another Christian I have always been uncomfortable at the commercial gloss of another party day hiding the very real and sinister "celebration" that the day marks for witches etc. This year I was more concerned because it now affects ds. Thankfully we received a letter from his nursery telling us that they acknowledge the day and will do things like dooking for apples, face painting etc. and they children are to come in fancy dress for which they make a contribution for the charity the nursery and pre-school are supporting this year. It was made very clear that costumes of ghosts, witches, vampires etc. are not acceptable. I think that this is the kind of sensible compromise that needs to be made and we will explain as he grows up why he won't be going out guising etc. I do find it disturbing that Hallowe'en is the biggest commercial holiday in the USA after Christmas and retailers are concerned that post Sept 11 there won't be as big an emphasis...

[Madmaz]

Harrysmum - the reason that there is no Guy Fawkes stuff amongst Catholics is because Guy Fawkes was a Catholic and the gunpowder plot was an essentially Catholic plot against James I, even though allegedly he was less prejudiced than previous monarchs.
Think your nursery is very sensible. That way no one can be offended, and little ones won't get scared by nasty masks and make up.
Myself and fellow mum (catholic incidentally) have now compromised and we are going to have a weekend dress up party for the kids - pointy hats and eye masks from Woolies costing 99p and 49p each respectively, cut out pumpkin lanterns (asda 1.38 each), other than that we will just do games like any other party really. pin the tail on the donkey, pass the parcel, statues etc. Then some drink for the grownups .... any excuse. Though I cannot believe the costumes in asda, woolies etc 10quid etc, maybe some people are very well off..
on the 31st itself we will shut the curtains and turn out the lights to all trick or treaters!!!

[Tigermoth]

Don't know about ASDA, but have you seen the halloween outfits in Baby Gap? I havn't looked at the price tags but I can imagine.... and after halloween, the clothing is bound to go straight into their sale.

[Lizzer]

Confession time Madmaz! My Mother came back from her weekly shop at Tesco's last week clutching two very cute 'witch' outfits, one for my 2 yr old and one for my 8yr old sister! Nothing like 'witches' you understand as they are basically 'fairy' outfits in the colours of black, purple and green. I SWEAR to you I would never have done it, but when they put them on you should've seen their little faces (joke!) Actually my sister did need an outfit for the Halloween party she's invited to and though she wanted to originally go as a cat the only item my Mum could find in the house to 'make' a costume was a pair of black tights! Therefore my Mother's justifcation was that it was easier spending a tenner on an entire outfit (hats and cloaks included y'know - bargain!) than faffing around hunting for black leotards and cat masks in the shops for the same price. Then, obviously, she had to be fair to her Grand-daughter and get one for her too and she thinks it's an investment for the future because it's in age 3-4, so she'll get loads of use out of it! These are her words not mine and, yes, at the moment she does have more money than sense - I'm suprised she didn't pick me up something classy in purple netting too!

Tigermoth - Gap outfits - crazy! Also, little stuffed cats and ghost hand puppets going for 7 quid each!

[Tigermoth]

Lizzer, I can see your mum's point, time is money etc etc. I suppose if you were really organised, you would buy fancy dress outfits ready for next year in the inevitable sale. I dread to think how much money we have wasted on plastic trash for halloween, but at the moment I am feeling virtuous. I gave my son's room a huge spring clean last weekend and threw masses of old halloween and fancy dress stuff - face paints, fake spiders, jewellery etc into a halloween bag. I'm intending to keep it hidden away from year to year, so it looks fresh each halloween. It's amazing how many ordinary things can be used for outfits and jokes like torches, whistles etc. But having thought about everyone's views on halloween here, I am now going to play down the blood and ghoul aspects and intend to accidently on purpose 'lose' a few of the more 'horrific' things I found in his toy collection.

I must admit, however, that I'll soon be facing a big, big battle regarding trick or treating. My son loves playing out and has gone trick or treating before on a minor scale to pre-warned neighbours. All his friends will be knocking on our door. I think we'll still let him go, but he will be accompanied by one of us and we'll vetting his costume and trick repertoire a little more carefully.

[Robinw]

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[Gracie]

Steady on RobinW! My take on this is that the committed Christians amongst us have been explaining why THEY won't be celebrating Halloween. Haven't noticed anyone saying what anyone else should or shouldn't do... I have found it fascinating and very informative.

[Bugsy]

Sorry to drag way back to Friday's posting from Bloss - part-time webwatcher here. I should have been more specific and said that my Jewish/Hindu acquaintances acknowledge and get involved with Christmas (sending cards, having a special meal on 25th and giving presents). Perhaps that is not strictly speaking celebrating.
It was also me who made the comparison of Halloween to Harry Potter. The reason being is that I don't think the majority of people who get involved in Halloween today are worshipping the occult/dead spirits etc, they are just getting dressed up in costumes and having a bit of fun.
I am a Christian, raised a Catholic & not entirely sure what I am these days. However, we were certainly never warned off Halloween, although we were always aware that there were no such things as ghosts etc and that this was just a bit of fun to do with our cultural heritage.
I don't really think there are correct or incorrect ways to celebrate/acknowledge Halloween, you just have to go with what feels right to you and fits comfortably with your beliefs.

[Jodee]

Robinw - how are Christians less tolerant? If people want to celebrate Halloween then they have every right to do so, but as Christians we were just trying to show the bigger picture by explaining why we won't be.
Don't worry, I hate turnips so I'll be keeping well away anyhow...

[Bloss]

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[littlemummy]

This has been fascinating reading, i am a mum of three and this year the kids have been very aware of halloween(peer pressure) as a christian (why do we give ourselves labels?)this year I really felt completely split, on one hand halloween is harmless fun for kids, dressing up, I did it and am not evil etc but on the other hand i dont like the knocking on peoples doors for sweets, celebrating ghosts etc which are not really very nice, I dont know what to feel, kids were very upset and oldest spent the evening sobbing watching at the window and told me "everyone else is doing it", so reading this has given me ideas, next year we will compromise , after school we will do fun games,apple bobbing etc go to pizza hut for tea, then return home, then in the house they can do a song etc for us then get their sweets in the halloween bag, we will have had fun and the kids hopefully wont feel they have missed out and I wont be guilty mum!
Anyone else do similar / different