Nursery inflexibility

[workingdad1980]

I'm wondering how others have coped with this issue and also whether anyone has a handle on the legality:

We applied for a nursery place Mon-Thurs and had those days RESERVED to start in June.

My wife has decided to delay going back to work so naturally asked the nursery to push the start date back to August.

Her work and grandparent childcare for a day situation has also changed and we now only need Mon, Tues and Thurs. So want to drop Wednesday.

Nursery want us to pay from June regardless and drop Thursday / Monday not Wednesday.

Is this standard practice that others have found?

Has anyone successfully argued against it and what strategy did they use?

Under trading standards and other legislation can a nursery dictate what days you can and can't drop?

I feel like I'm the customer...so if I don't want Wednesday anymore then at the maximum I should be able to give a month's notice and drop Wednesday. Not be told it has to be Thursday or Monday.

As an aside their argument is the same if I wanted to drop my older child who attends down a day. They would have the say over which day, and indeed whether I could / he gets removed altogether.

I get they have other people on waiting lists but my business is with them not other people.

[yummymummycleo]

I think you're in the wrong. You have signed up to start in June and have changed that and now also want to change days. That's a lot of changing, I can see why they aren't being flexible. You had a contract, you can't just change the terms to suit you.

The misery has outgoings and have probably employed people for their ratios on these basis. They also have other people and their kids to consider.

Our nursery was also completely inflexible and I get it is annoying. They had certain days only for my child and refused to tell you which days were available until the last minute making it very hard to plan work so I get your annoyance.

[drspouse]

On the start date, I think YABU. It's less than a month till your original start date and you have a month notice period. Either give a month's notice now and hope they have a place in August, or pay for the two months.
On the days, I would expect them to let you give a month's notice for the extra day. Our nursery books termly and if you cancel mid term you pay till the end unless someone else fills the space. They also don't actually specify if you drop a day but I think work on the assumption that "cancellation" equals full or part cancellation and if you were to make some kind of claim then someone else may agree.
Could you ask if they can keep trying to fill the extra day space and let you know as soon as they have?

[AHellOfABird]

And if your requests are incompatible with those of another client who is preferable - more days, siblings etc, then the nursery will need to take a commercial decision.

[AHellOfABird]

" There is no way I could be dictated to by a nursery as it is my work that calls the shots on which days I can work"

Dictated to?

Crikey.

The nursery is offering a service. The service may be full on some days not others. The days it is not full can be offered to you. If those days don't suit your employer's needs, you have to find a different nursery.

[MindfulBear]

You should expect to pay if you don't give sufficient notice of not needing the place. However on the point of dropping days and being dictated to - that does seem unreasonable. Have you asked them why? There is no way I could be dictated to by a nursery as it is my work that calls the shots on which days I can work!

[katiekrafter]

I manage a nursery and I don't think you understand, OP. There are staffing ratios that are compulsory and quite low - one adult to three children (depends on age) for example. To have one child missing for two months means that the nursery loses one third of its income covering that staff member's wages. It's hardly fair to expect that is it? TBF to the nursery, they could simply say sorry, we can't accept your change of terms and you can re-register for August, but we can't guarantee you a place, and they then go and cover costs by getting another child in to take the vacant space.

The better the nursery, the more demand there will be for places. Any nursery that is able to accommodate you and your whims may well be one you want to avoid.

Also, to consider your child in the same way as you do your shopping says a bit about your attitude, does it not? This is not a service industry, it is dealing with your child, highly regulated, and you should be falling over yourself to ensure you get off on a good footing with the people that are going to look after your child. I'd suggest you find another nursery, and if you were one of my prospective parents, I would be suggesting the same, as I don't think the relationship would work. You have to have a trusting relationship on both sides, and it doesn't look like this is now possible.

[namechangedtoday15]

Yes, my nursery specified which days I could have when I paid my initial deposit. 2 months into it, I wanted to change my days. Nursery said I could go on the waiting list for the day and would offer it to me if and when a place became available. The nursery is so good that I booked effectively 2 years in advance (effectively as soon as I got pregnant and was taking a years' maternity leave). The nursery admitted 2 babies every month (so they settled in), children moving between groups arc was very carefully planned so staff were employed / rotas organised months if not years in advance.

Expecting the nursery to accommodate your changes at such short notice and then complaining about poor customer service, or likening it to Sky TV just demonstrated a complete lack of understanding of how nurseries work.

[WeAllHaveWings]

Nursery have staff on to cover a number of children and want to fill to capacity to make the most profit. If you do not have a child there fulltime they need to find another child for the other days. If you are in 4 days a weeks it is not so bad losing one day of revenue, but once you are down to 3 days a week finding someone to fill the other 2 to mitigate the financial difference is harder.

If they are a busy nursery it would be better for them if you went elsewhere and they got a fulltime child.

Sky is a totally different scenario as their overheads per customer is significantly less.

[YonicTrowel]

Well said, jannier.

I'm sure if OP, who has a finite resource of working hours, was offered a job starting in June for 4 days a week and rented a new flat accordingly, he'd see the difference if the employer then didn't want him until August and then for 3 days a week...

[jannier]

I don't get a comparison to sky....sky can have as many customers who sign up all using the service at the same time. If sky could only have 30 customers a a time and had a waiting list of people all desperate for the same 4 days a week they would be loosing money by allowing a customer to say I want you to keep a sky box for me from now until November then turning around in October and saying wait until January and now I only want it for 3 days.

There is a fixed number of children to staff (and room size), and staff have to be recruited for demand it snot a case of ring Friday for someone to come in Monday Those staff have to go through vetting processes that can take the police 18 weeks or more, they have to have training in not only childcare but first aid safeguarding and the nursery's policies so will already have been recruited for June to work on 4 days now you've said hang on My wife doesn't fancy work yet and the grand parents are their to do one day so don't earn any money pay your staff and keep them waiting for me That delay if they don't fill the space is costing them at least £100 in staff a week yet they have to have a space for August, so they fill your space (they could just say no and keep your deposit as they have fulfilled their part of contract) then they have to match your new requirements to someone who may be leaving.
Many setting are already struggling to break even thanks to the 15 hours funding that pays a loss so despite having high demand they cant maximise profit or they say to you all no funding accepted then you say that's no fair my 3 year old is entitled to a space free...

Childcare numbers are determined not just by staff but b the size of the actual building and room so if they are only registered for 20 they can only take 20 if your Wednesday means having 21 they cant do it, or should they say to someone who wants 5 days a week and already uses it sorry he wants your day so give it up....you may even put back starting another month or not at all for all they know. You are already looking to them like uncertain business.

[YonicTrowel]

Duck, it seems that the OP has currently reserved a four day a week place from 1st (?) June.

He now wants a three day a week place from 1st (?) August ie he wants to reduce his usage of the service by 25% and delay the start.

So he is the one making all the change requests, with less than a month before his original reservation.

If he had started on 1st June paying for four days a week and thereafter asked to drop a day (with a month's notice) then his position might have been stronger as he would definitely be in contract ; right now, the nursery may well be better off returning any deposit and taking another customer who wants 4/5 days per week as his late change is big blow to their planning.

[insancerre]

The thing is you reservd your days to start in june
You now want to push that back
In order to pay the staff that would have cared for your child in June the nursery have now given priority to a child who has now taken your days and started in June
Meaning you get whats left
Which is your fault as you reneged on the original deal
The nursery has serious over heads just to break even so I don't see why they should turn down business to try to acomodastet you given you have already delayed your start date and reduced your days

[Duckdeamon]

It's a weird market. They are unlikely to be raking in profits OP!

It all depends on what the contract says. This sort of thing is pretty foreseeable but lots of people don't ask Qs in writing before signing. And employers often don't understand how hard it is to change childcare arrangements in areas where there is much more demand than good supply.

If the contract wasn't specific on arrangements for changing and/or reducing sessions then you might (at a guess! Not a lawyer!) be able to argue that if you refuse to pay for those sessions and they take away your DCs' places altogether they are in breach of contract. But going to small claims would be a PITA and you'd have no childcare.

As PPs have said their priority will be people wanting close to FT sessions, now.

[HSMMaCM]

I suspect someone else or someone new wants another day, but not Wednesday, so they are trying to meet that demand. Have they just asked if you can change the days, or said that is the only option? Quite often parents can be flexible about which days they work.

I agree you should be charged from June.

[YonicTrowel]

Are you for real?

The ideal parent for a nursery would want five days a week and pop out younger siblings at 18 month intervals whilst booking a space well in advance.

Life isn't like that, so profit margins are tight.

You just made yourself less desirable by both dropping a day and pushing back the start date. They may well have turned down a 4/5 day a week child for you.

So they are probably now trying to "match" another prospective client's required days to be able to accommodate you and make up the many years' worth of 1 day per week that they just lost from you.

With respect to the legals, you pre agreed certain terms and it is you, not them, looking to vary them. So not sure why you think you are in the right!

[popperdoodles]

They do seem quite inflexible but nursery business model is quite unique. Costs are high despite staff being on low pay. Ratios must be maintained and they are trying to provide a quality environment to benefit the children, it's not just about watching them, it's q hugely undervalued profession. Most settings don't have the scope to be completely flexible and need to plan staff and children carefully, there is nor much wriggle room so parents are discouraged to swap about.

[BackforGood]

I agree with everyone else. You must pay for the days you booked - other decisions will be based on the fact that your dc was booked in for those days. Fair enough if you only do so for one month I suppose, but if you are cancelling the contract, then they will also have the right to say they will offer the place to another child. If you want them to hold the place until August, then you need to pay for it, otherwise they are losing money.
Re the changing days - it will depend who else they have booked in on what days. It's nothing like your Sky scenario, as the Nursery have to keep within ratio, and can't just have extra people in randomly. They need to balance their books, which is getting increasingly more difficult.

[fuzzyfozzy]

I do ask parents if they can swap so I can take on more business, but if they can't the they can't. Give notice unless you really like it.

[workingdad1980]

fuzzyfozzy

That seems fair, we did offer to pay a proportion of the costs for months we didn't want, approx. half...but again were rebuffed.

Appreciate the advice on days.

[LIZS]

But you didn't sign a contract to join a queue, you booked those 4 days. Now you are asking to vary that by dropping a day and deferring the start date. Maybe in time they could accommodate your wishes, when a child moves up age group for example, but in the meantime you should work around what days they can offer. Next child on the list may need a Thursday. They may also feel that a block of consecutive days will help with settling in.

[fuzzyfozzy]

I'm a childminder. If you wanted to put back your start date and is been holding a place for you, I'd be asking for half fees until you started.
Re the days, it sounds like they've had another child come up and they think they can take both on if you change days. You're right to give a months notice to change days. They might have heard you've got other childcare that makes you flexible. Just stand your ground.

[workingdad1980]

sarahbanshee

As far as I have just been advised, there is no legal basis to a. make me pay the costs for June / July and b. not drop Wednesdays.

The only spectre of doom available to the nursery is that they are entitled to cancel the whole agreement.

this is where they have the consumer bent over a barrel.

[VeryPunny]

FWIW, it's not uncommon to take the days that nursery offer and then move to your preferred days as they become available.