Inflated fees for a child receiving 15 hours of "free" entitlement

[moniuhna]

My son will soon be eligible for the government funding for 3-4-year-olds and the nursery he goes to takes part in the scheme. When I look at their fees I've discovered that even though they say he will receive the "free" hours (12 in any week as he is in the nursery only for two days), they inflate his hourly rates from £5.8 (paid by non-funded children) to £7.50 for any other hour above that so in fact we end up feeling they top-up his "free" hours by doing that. They claim that they do not operate on hourly basis but I calculate that if their daily fee is £58 for 10 hours of childcare then it comes to £5.8/hour but they don't accept this and say I can't calculate it this way. They say they only charge monthly and that the fee reflects the needs of the business. And in fact they can't tell me why I am charged more than I should as "businesses do not need to tell why they operate in the way they operate". Is this a common practice? Do I stand any chance challenging that or is there a loophole allowing them to do so?

[Quodlibet]

I completely agree with you OP. Our nursery doesn't up its rates, but is blunt about the fact that it offers the 'free' hours only as a discount (of £43/wk) on a full time place (£240). Ok, so it's a little cheaper, but they are not abiding to the law as there is no way for me just to access the free hours there.

I don't agree that we should be grateful for the scraps the govt and nurseries throw us. The cost of childcare in this country is an abomination, and I am sure that some nurseries are turning a healthy profit, and that day rates are pretty much pegged to local earning power so are the highest the market can bear before parents say, fuck it, I'm better off not working.

My friend moved from London to Norfolk. Her nursery bill reduced from £70/day to £28/day. Same staff ratio in both places on minimum wage - so why the high London rates? Because they CAN charge more, and know parents are shafted.

We need a childcare economy that isn't driven by profits, which is properly subsidised, and where those subsidies are used fairly, and not exploited by nurseries who have us over a barrel. In Germany, where their economy seems to be doing a lot better than ours, a full-time childcare place will set you back about €100. Here, for many people, childcare costs are equal or greater than their mortgage.

[HSMMaCM]

• We need a childcare economy that isn't driven by profits, which is properly subsidised, and where those subsidies

Quite agree

[HSMMaCM]

Sorry missed the last bit of the quote

[moniuhna]

I agree too. I know that in Finland, where my husband comes from, education, including childcare, all the schools, universities, colleges, is completely free and is one of the best in the world. Yes, Finns pay high taxes and welfare is generous but people use it only as a temporary solution when they get into financial difficulties, not a lifestyle choice. Most of the taxes in the UK go towards welfare bill, not education or NHS. This is a question of mentality, not resources.

[moniuhna]

Just as a reference: eyeonearlyeducation.com/2014/03/19/finlands-approach-to-child-care-and-preschool-programs/

[LeaLeander]

Yes, and how many Finns are there vs the population of other countries?

As to London fees, don't you think things like rent, wages, insurance etc also are higher there?!

Those complaining should open nurseries and see how they get on charging below market rates.

[BombadierFritz]

Welfare = pensions

Should we not pay them then?

[RidersOnTheStorm]

You may not like it, OP, but you're stuck with it unless you send your child elsewhere. The nursery can tell you to go away if you don't like their charges.

[BombadierFritz]

www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-29898083
Do you mean those personalised statements we got about govt spending op?

[moniuhna]

What has the population number to do with anything? Yes, there are more people in the UK but also more tax collected. It's about the way it is spend and prioritised, not how many people live in the country.

Welfare is not only pensions (Finns also get pensions) but also working age benefits like hounsing benefits, low income support, unemployment benefits etc. Sadly, it becomes more and more beneficial for people to be not in work rather than in work.

[llhj]

Totally agree with you OP. Those 'free' hours are a con.

[LeaLeander]

I think you do not understand population economics. You just want more freebies at your fellow citizens' expense and won't acknowledge logic.

[HSMMaCM]

Having childcare paid by taxes just means that people who don't even have children have to pay for other people's childcare.

[Adeleslostbeehive]

What's wrong with that HSMM? I don't use the NHS much doesn't mean I resent paying for it.

[moniuhna]

What freebies? I work and do pay taxes and I can assure you I contribute more than I take.

Even if I did not have children, I would prefer my taxes went to education and helping other parents be at work (for example by subsidising childcare) than paying benefits to scroungers and people who do not even want to work... I live close to a council estate and people that I see there, with their lifestyles and mentality, it just goes beyond my grasp sometimes. And yet I am penalised by higher childcare rates just because I want to work. Clearly this system is deeply flawed.

[LeaLeander]

Everyone has different notions of how they would like tax dollars spent. many of us don't think they should be used to encourage easy procreation on a planet groaning over the destructive effects of more than 7 billion existing humans.

Illness often or usually cannot be predicted or avoided, hence the NHS. Childrearing is voluntary & can be planned and saved for at one's own expense.

[SauvignonPlonker]

The cost of childcare here is horrendous, certainly compared to other countries. Germany, France, Australia come to mind. It's especially hard for working parents; yet the 15-hours "free" (I use that term in inverted commas)penalises them most & helps those who need it least.

I wonder what happened to the new taxation relief changes proposed for working parents by the conservatives just before the last election? IMO, that was a much better system for working parents. The cynic in me says it was a last ditch-attempt to increase votes & was unworkable so hasn't been implemented.

[louise2011]

Our nursery is the same- just takes the money council gives them off the daily bill. £5 per session- she does 2 long days so £10 saving for me a day.

[BombadierFritz]

Oh the irony. Just stop sponging off the state with your free childcare and pay full whack. I hope you dont accept cb or ctc with your attitude to sponging off the state. You are not the only person with kids n a job you know!

[Quodlibet]

Bombardier, successive governments have been complicit in pushing up the cost of living to the point where it is now impossible to feed and house a family on 1 sole income, so WTC, or nursery care with two people working is the unpleasant but inevitable option for many. Maybe if the State introduced rent controls, or stopped basing their economic policies on re back of an ever inflating housing market, or actually made businesses pay a decent living wage, or taxed huge multinationals properly and ploughed that significant income back into supporting hard working families, then there wouldn't be so many people 'sponging off the state'.

We all expect (reasonably) free education for our children and free healthcare, without which most people wouldn't be able to function. Well, we are now at a point where the costs of living are such that without subsidised nursery/childcare, many families cannot make ends meet. I've no doubt your response will be 'well don't have kids then', but actually I think the argument is more complex than that, and we have to see governmental policies which affect the cost of living and quality of life in tandem with judging people's reliance on the state, as the two are completely connected.

[Katymac]

everyone pulls up Sweden as an example of low cost nursery care & it is if you consider what the parents pay

However when you look into it closely, the fixed costs of the nursery (rent/council tax equivalents, elec etc) are all paid for by the state and based on the small sample looked into by my brother (who lives in Stockholm) the actial cost was (at the time) almost identical to a quality nursery in this counrty & actually more expensive than the Children's Centres of the time

[insancerre]

Your calculations, op assume you are getting 38 weeks when in fact it may only be calculated to the end of august and not for the next 12 months
Monthly fees are normally calculated daily rate x number of days x 52 ÷ 12 = monthly fee
The funding is number of funded hours a week x funding rate received or hourly rate charged x number of funding weeks left which is 21 if you calculate it from 1sr April to 31st August. I've assumed it's from April as you said he would be eligible soon as opposed to now

[insancerre]

12 hours at £3.74 over 38 weeks is £142.12 over 12 months
Which is the amount the nursery have deducted from your monthly bill

[BombadierFritz]

Oh its not me who started the whole 'welfare payments (on cb and ctc/wrc amongst others) are so high, i am a hardworking taxpayer, the other kids at nursery on free places have slobby parents on benefits' whinge. Just pointing out the irony.

[eastmidswarwicknightnanny]

Our nursery only took off 12hrs as we did 2days and they basically deduct what the government give them from our bill for that mth so each mth was different dependent on how many funded days fell in that mth. If he had only attended funded sessions then they would have been free but not necessarily a place available.

Most nursery do just deduct the funded amount rather than take off "free hrs" and some charge for in between bits at higher rate my sister pays £6 for the lunch hr and has to provide a pk lunch she could of course collect And return him.

My ds1 is now at school and ds2 14mths at nursery and what they currently do with the 3yr funding is total government amount they will get for the year they take off 15hrs as long as you do more than that a week they them take the government amount off what your bill would be for that year and divide by monthly amount. For example your yearly bill is £10k they get £3k from government they charge you £7k/12mths.