Here are Gabrielle's answers:
Hi Shanster Good to hear from US mum. I have lived in US and thought it was a difficult place to be a mother, especially if you?re poor. There are no right answers. All mothers have to care for their babies in the best way they can in a wide variety of circumstances. Of course I am not against expressing or working if that is what is essential to survive . All mothers have worked since the dawn of time. It is a mark of our times that we only call money-earning activities working. If you knew how little money I earn you would call me unemployed, but I never stop doing what I do.
All I know is that many mothers in the world find economic survival, social expectations and happy mothering, conflicting. The baby needs to be cared for by one or two sensitive people who love him/her and with whom he/she can form a long term relationship. All psychologists agree on that. The big question is not the style of babycare but the quality. Will the mother substitute be in touch with that baby forever? Does he or she love the baby as much as you do? These questions drive mothers crazy with pain and they are really important. In Scandinavia (and some othre countries) there has been a consensus that for general well-being (economic, social, emotional, health) that usually the mother is the best and most willing person to care for her baby so this is supported with generous maternity leave and benefits. . Despite the fact that fathers have always had the right to use this, most families feel the baby needs her mother more in the early months. Alll women have worked since the dawn of time, usually more than men. It is modern society that made breastfeeding and work incompatible. But it all depends on the individual baby?s needs. The majority of women in the world work in the informal sector and dare not claim their rights, their babies die if they are not breastfed. We have to tackle this.
With early factories where there were no facilities to eat, pee or wash,, eventually rules came in about hygiene and food breaks because the sickness and eath was counter-productive. But it took protest and organization to achieve this. So too with breastfeeding, it is a public health issue. We have to decide as a society whether support for mothers is less important for long term health and well being than to make more money ??for whom? . I believe society would get economically wealthier if mothers were supported to breastfeed. By the way I have learned a lot from life in societies where women breastfeed and work without it being a hugely complex conflict. Women work far harder (I mean grueling days in the fields, hours of grain pounding, trading and carrying huge loads on their heads) than those of us in richer countries and they breastfeed. I am not romanticizing their lives, but we could learn a lot from the way women have worked things out over the millennia. The big question is who is looking after the baby and are her needs being met? First year of life is most crucial for all development.
But hey there is no one right way in our messy world, parenting is a series of compromises. We all do our best.
Gabrielle, whilst the breastfeeding charities do a lot of wonderful work, do you think that it being left largely to "charity" makes breastfeeding something that's less valuable in our capitalist society (that, and the fact that breastmilk is free!)?
Dear Hunkermunker, yes, yes, yes, you have hot the nail on the head (or located the nipple on the breast). That is exactly what I have been struggling to say in the new edition of POB, especially in the last two chapters. The cliché is that the best things in life are free. The reality is we destroy the best things, which is why the world is in such a pickle.
Should we be concentrating more on supporting mothers who want to breastfeed to do so after 6 weeks / 6 months etc, rather than trying to promote initiation for all babies?
As a sub-point, so many of my (middle class, middle income, early thirties) friends breastfed until exactly 6 months and then switched to formula.
My thinking is that if these people could be encouraged to carry on, and to feed in public, that would go a long way towards normalising breastfeeding, and that would lead to more people initiating and seeking support when they needed it.
Hi hannaflower, if you don?t initiate bf you don?t have much choice about how long you breastfeed for . And do you know why they stop at exactly six months? Because the advertising tells them to. How would the companies make their profits if they did not promote the ridiculous and unnecessary FOFs? Which of course indirectly promote all FF which is why they were invented.. The Gov can look good at World Health Assemblies if UK initiation figures are higher and they can please the companies at the same time if artifiical milk sales rise as well. We are all so generous, we support the milk manufcaturers through tax subsidies so they can afford to promote and sell the milk?.and then we give them more money by stopping breastfeeding as soon a possible. In that way our babies become the wet-nappied philanthropists and the companies share values can continue to rise. Ijust heard the other day (from UNICEF person) that infant formulas and FOFs have an 80% profit margin. Aren?t we mums kind witholding our breastmilk so that Nestle and Danone can get richer. It?s our oxytocin which makes us so generous and trusting
I was wondering if you had any family members who have/had small children, whether they found it difficult to breastfeed and what practical support you were able to offer them particularly over the first few weeks of the baby's life. Does a theoretical understanding of the benefits of bf translate to being able to identify good practice in person?
Hallo Rorysracingma, Yes of course, I?m related to human beings. First few weeks difficult when mum and baby do not live in a breastfeeding culture. Most important is someone to give lots of love and encouragement with a lot of ??you can do it?. Families, partners, health professionals can make or break confidence. If you have that you can work a lot of ??how to do it? . Theoretical understanding is useless without this and probably in our society a bit of help from someone who knows how. Basic practicalities are simply knowing that a baby is well-attached, no time restriction (throw away that watch, don?t count feeds?.I know some health professionals will be having nervous breakdowns just reading that) and DON?T PUT UP WITH PAIN. If it hurts get help. It is supposed to be fun. Look at the way cats purr when their kittens suckle. I am no longer a breastfeeding counsellor so really I have no right to say these things. There are lots of wonderful counsellors and support groups around so ask for help. Every mum and baby is different and you can work out what is right for you. But the main thing is confidence. It?s a bit like sex, the first few times might not be so glorious for some but they soon improve techniques if they feel comfortable with one another, for others it?s fantastic from the start. BUT if it hurts and neither of you are happy get help QUICK.
In the UK people expects problems and by god don?t they get them. How do you think all those hunter gatherers did it before books and pamphlets and cushions? No surprise because still lots of medical and social practices make it go wrong. And they still don?t train the poor old health professionals properly too much theory and not enough observation and experience in the medical, nursing and midwifery schools. It?s getting better but still long way to go. I heard that most HVs get no bf training. Most important thing is not to do harm. And as for the mother and baby mags?.aaah! There is nothing like seeing 20 pictures of bottles and milks and dummies to make you give up. Take way all the constraints and breastfeeding would be the norm for all in a generation. Serious problems (not caused by misinformation and bad hospital practices) are rare and even then they can still be helped if mums can access help quickly. The best way to destroy happy breastfeeding is to destroy women?s self confidence. People and marketing do that all the time.
In your opinion, is boycotting Nestle an effective method to register one's disgust at their advertising tactics in the developing world?
What can individuals/groups do?
Also, what is the single thing that could be done to 'normalize' breastfeeding? Am thinking every breastfeeding woman to post a photo of themselves breastfeeding on Facebook at the same time (as they have a policy...)
Hi ilovemydog Without the original 1970s Nestle Boycott none of us would be doing what we?re doing now. I read The Baby Killer in 1974 and never looked back. I didn?t even know that breast was healthier then, though I had breastfed two children. The NB was what made the world sit up and see the illness and death that advertising caused. It provoked the US Government to hold an Inquiry (led by the late Edward Kennedy) which resulted in the idea of the WHO/UNICEF International Code of Marketing. This led to the regulations (even if they are still too weak) that we have today. Without the NB thousands more babies would have died. Indeed the boycott played a significant role in the return of breastfeeding in the rich countries. All the research and interest might never have happened.
Nestle is still the biggest baby food company in the world (Danone is next). It is also the biggest dairy company. What is more we subsidise it through our taxes.. EU subsidies have gone to Nestle even though the parent company is Swiss and not in the EU.
Boycotting is a very polite and civilized way of communicating your disgust and as the late Senator Edward Kennedy said: ?a recognized tool in a free economic, democratic society?
I don?t think I should tell individual groups what to do. It is your creativity and fresh ideas which will change the world. Just avoid petty quarrels (people who care a lot tend to bicker) and remember personal energy and creativity is more important than funds. One more thing no martyrs, don?t stay up all night writing and snap at your loved ones the next day. There speaks the remorseful voice of experience.
As to normalizing breastfeeding, you are already achieving this. JUST DO IT. You have already done so much When I had my children in the early 1970s, no one breastfed in public and some friends were horrified when I breastfed in my own living room! Women were arrested and asked to leave restaurants, meeting rooms and even paediatric wards (truly!). Things are getting better.
If you don?t feel shy or subject to harassment do breastfeed in public, it educates the young as to how it is done. When I was a child in the 1950s eating in the street was taboo, no one objects now if someone strolls down the road or sits on the bus eating . We are used to it. Same with breasts and babies, they?ll get used to it. It?s happening now. Too slow but right direction.
Facebook idea intrigues me because maybe posting a photo of breastfeeding makes it look special and not ordinary. Do people post photos of themselves eating a sandwich? Probably. You can tell what an old fogey I am that I don?t know!
I would want the photos to be very much set in everyday life, ie Mum breastfeeding while she?s on the phone, shopping, walking along, not the usual ones of sitting in her nightie with a cushion on her lap in a hospital bed. There are loads of lovely pics of breastfeeding as an everyday event on the net and in various great calendars. I am not advertising one because I think all the groups promoting breastfeeding are great.
By the way The European Blueprint for Action (it?s on the net which is supposed to be our government?s policy says that ?ALL MEDIA? should present six months exclusive breastfeeding and continued breastfeeding with other foods to two years and beyond, as the norm. Huh!
HoochieMomma
Don't want to hijack here but thisisyesterday this systematic review by Akobeng (2007) of a large population in England and Wales estimated that approx 33,100 cases of asthma, 2655 cases of celiac disease and 13,639 cases of obesity could be prevented in one year if the risk factor ?no breastfeeding? was eliminated.
...Can you tell I went away after that thread and read up at tiny bit?!
Ah HoochieMomma thank you, this is why I can retire because of bright young brains like yours. Be careful or you?ll end up like me and it will take over your life! I now have a short time to do all the other things I meant to do when I was 20! One other point though, I have noticed that most people never let the facts get in the way of believing what they want to believe, or do. Governments will utter pious statements about breastfeeding forever but it will take a bigger revolution to stop putting milk company profits first. They love rich men more than milky women. And who does most harm to the environment?
have already posted a question....but wanted to comebackto the early education at school about breast feeding being important to boys as well as girls. I feel in some way more important to normalise with boys. I am so glad that ds1 and ds2 areoldenough to retain memories of me feeding ds3
Hallo popsycal Brilliant , you are thinking my thoughts. Lots of places in the world where men make all the important decisions. Agencies go blue in the face telling women what to do with their kids but back home Dad?s (or Uncle?s or Grandad?s word is law.
Also why shouldn?t boys learn about this fascinating phenomonon. But just a minute don?t tell me that when they do teach it schools (biology lessons?) they exclude the lads? Surely that is against sex discrimination law?
I hope your lovely little ones are spreading the word. They are lucky to have you as their mum. My dad (died in 1990) could recall breastfeeding and he was very ?pro?.
I was recently travelling with my daughter and grandsons, Tom aged just 4 years and Harry 6 months. We stopped at a petrol station and my daughter breastfed Harry. Tom somehow persuaded me to buy him a lurid orange drink (shame) and my daughter wanted a diet coke (horror of horrors). I bought a newspaper and had a sip of water. My grandson said gleefully ?I had an unhealthy drink and mummy had an unhealthy drink, Granny had the Guardian and Harry had the healthiest drink.? One little boy knows it all already.
[Names changed to protect the innocent.]
Hi Dawntigga you?re doing it already, rejoice. But it is no good if we let those industry xxxxxxx (expletive of your choice) carry on with their billion dollar oh so clever marketing campaigns. If we don?t stop them doing this, all our good work is undone. Just stop the misinformation.
Hi Arizona Barker I love it that you?re telling us your tale. Thank you. I know several women who did not breastfeed and are activists and don?t writhe forever about the fact they didn?t breastfeed. I?m so cheered to hear you got such good support. You can do so much good for this whole issue just by being you.
Yes it is a bit simplistic, why aren?t we all nice to each other. You cannot just rely on ?a system?. Maybe the human impulse to compete and undermine is stronger than the good feelings. Also women are still second class citizens in this respect. Cannot answer as a whole but I do think health professionals don?t get enough ?debriefing? about their own miseries and not enough emotional support in their daily work. Many don?t have the emotional energy or skills to give what you experienced. If it all went wrong for them they often have a lot of suppressed ?stuff?.
By the way my sister didn?t breastfeed her first child (it all went wrong for all the usual reasons) and swore she would never to feed ever again. She was angry. Then with the next one she got the right help at the right time (not from me) and it all went well ?.and she went on to have another and she really knew what to do. She really knows how to help other women now.
I'd like to ask a question about language. I understand your argument that use of the word 'formula' gives a scientific weight to commercial infant milks that seems inappropriate. However, use of the phrase 'artificial milk' is likely to be seen as inflammatory in everyday life, since our culture would associate artifical as bad and (understandably) no-one who ff likes to be told that they are feeding their baby 'bad milk'. How do you reconcile this use of language when in an every (rather than professional) setting, and how do you personally refer to ff when in a social setting?
Hi RibenaBerry and Pistachio I think this responds to your question too. Interesting question because language affects how we feel (as the advertisers know). ?Artificial Feeding? was the term used in all the medical and baby books throughout much of the 20th century. I think its good to use the accurate, correct term if it is true. Artificial feeding is good if there is nothing else. After all if I had my leg cut off I would want an artificial leg. I wouldn?t mind if a deaf aid were called an artificial ear. People have artificial hips and knees and rejoice in them. I suppose we could call it ?prosthetic feeding? or ?synthetic feeding?. To me it is just calling a spade a spade (or an artificial digging tool). If the term upsets then why not call it breastfeeding?how does that make you feel?bad I expect because it is not true. The plain truth is easier. What would you like to call it?
By the way I have artificially fed babies (orphans in an orphanage with no wet nurses).
By the way I met a young single mother in Canada who told me ?I so wish they had called it artificial feeding when I had my baby. If they had called it that I would certainly have breastfed.? She lived in Newfoundland with a ?bottle feeding culture? and her baby had lots of chest infections. No one had told her that breastfeeding could prevent these.
I think tone is important. You know the lovely way non-judgmental health workers are with drug users. Actually most of the women I know who have not breastfed or those who decide not to do not feel guilty. I think it is the health professionals and companies that whip up the concept. When we talk about overweight or safe drinking less or smoking we cope with all the guilt and bad feelings. If somebody tells me I?m drinking more than my safe unit maximum I don?t say, ?Oh don?t tell me that you?re making me feel guilty,? I think, ?they are right, I can make my own decision about this.?
I think we don?t give good information about the actual contents of the milks and foods nor how to make feeds less risky. People need facts. A mother is entitled to artificially feed if she wants to and she is also entitled to the truth about what is in the products and their risks. Tell your pregnant friends the truth in a nice, calm tone. I do know it is very hard not to get passionate about breastfeeding. I think my larynx problems come from controlling my feelings! But a laid back, calm approach works wonders. Try not to preach (huh says me), just let people make up their own monds when you have given them the facts.
They?ll do whatever they want to in the end anyway.
Dear Boob Buffet ( love the name) Bit worried about set book in schools suggestion. Don?t they mostly hate the set books and never pick them up again. I like voluntary not compulsary reading. .Oh goodness my publishers (the truly wonderful Pinter & Martin) will be cross with me because set books sell in huge amounts. So maybe.
Some policy makers understand really well and others don?t. The trouble is in our society that policy makers are influenced, constrained, controlled, blackmailed, badgered by pressures from big powerful companies.
What I am clear about is that it is YOU and your dps and dhs who will influence policy makers. They need educating so educate them, they need your vote so tell them what they have to do to get it.
As to children in schools, I am ignorant about education (kids too old, grandkids too young) and am amazed that they don?t learn this . Don?t they learn about digestion and handwashing and not mugging old ladies? Why not breastfeeding? I know the woman who wrote to authorities and got the national curriculum changed to include breastfeeding, so why aren?t they teaching it?
I am a bit baffled about what they do learn at school. I have always had a feeling that we learn despite going to school, but I don?t want to insult you hardworking teachers. I know you have a terrible job because of all sorts of ridiculous rituals and rites laid down by civil servants.
Dear TheCrackFox, yes the Scottish ads are brilliant. Love them.
Dear nigglewiggle this is the million dollar question. I wish I knew the answer. Am so baffled. If we had private medicine, I could understand because doctors could get richer from treating all the extra illnesses. Are doctors jealous of breasts ?cause they do their work for them? Let?s just say that rationality is not what guides many human decisions. But honestly the poor doctors learn less than many of us and many textbooks are just astonishingly ignorant about bf, even now.
So sorry you had the DVT and the shockingly bad advice, I?ve never heard of such a thing. But please let your negative experience inspire you to prevent this happening to others. Well who am I to say that, that?s exactly what you are doing.
Hi StarlightMcKenzie Not low level at all I am having to think quite hard, the simple questions can be quite tricky when you look into them.
Very suspect about this message. Expressing is not the same as breastfeeding, even the milk may be different and what about the smells and the skins contact? Useful for emergencies or if mum has no alternative but why make it routine? Whole point of breastfeeding is the closeness. Babies need mum close and naked and lots of mums need their babies close too. Dad can bond without milk and bottles. I hate to reveal personal stuff but my dh never bottlefed our two and he was the cuddliest dad in the world and is a doting grandpa. Never gave them a drop of anything and is bonded like glue. Come on dads, those babies hang about the house for 20 years or more. Let mum only do the breastfeeding and you do everything else you?ll bond away and she?ll have loads of breaks. Also expressed milk is different and you might be giving them the wake-up milk when you want them to doze off. Goodness, it was designed so well and we fiddle about and make it all complicated.
You know the contraceptive effect of breastfeeding doesn?t work with expression which shows the hormones are working differently when it is not actual suckling. Vry intriguing. So thumbs down from me for this poster (have not seen it). Am baffled again. Somebody tell me what its purpose is. Please see my cartoon on page 87 of my book. Has the Dairy Council made weaning guide posters? Oh swear words of your choice are pouring forth from my mouth. I was just feeling less depressed because of all your lovely messages. I mean how close a vested interest could you pick? Talk about the fox designing the hen coop.. Groan groan.
Dear wonderful Mumsnet messageposters I am feeling overwhelmed with joy at all your great messages and questions and ideas. Thrilled about your cumulative years of breastfeeding (and believe me you will be rewarded with superkids who will make your hearts sing). Also felled with misery at all the news about new ads and stupid posters. I have been in this business for almost 40 years and the fact that this nonsense continues gets me down.
Dear Popsycle I avoid TV and supermarlet baby food shelves and magazines because I get too depressed. They are all against the Code of Marketing which our government (whatever political colour) has always pretended to applaud at the World Health Assemblies. Honestly we pay these people to go and tell lies. They all agree (every two years) that we must enact the Code and halt all the marketing and then just let the companies ride roughshod over the rules (sorry bit of a mixed metaphor there).
Dear LeninGrotto 7 years; read Kathy Dettwyler. Also Ann Sinnott is publishing a book early next year called Breastfeeding Older Children . It will contain loads of info.
The ? lewd act ? stories are scary but they are rare and usually US based. They have a real problem with nipples over there. In 2005 Jan Pienkowski, the marvellous illustrator of Fairy Tales had the nipples sliced off his black and white drawing of the Sleeping Beauty in the US edition. And she had just given birth! Apparently little US kids might be damaged if they see a nipple. European kids are more resilient against the shock. My New York friend has just told me that they have a special bra to stop nipples showing through T-shirts. Are these the same people who object to yashmaks? Noses must be naked but nipples must be hidden. Also they never seem to object to male nipples or even manboobs.
To be serious the people who wrest breastfeeding toddlers from their mums are just plain ignorant and oppressed by a US cultural pathology. They will sort it out, there are a lot of sane people over there too.
There are many women breastfeeding for years without fuss or comment all over the world. In the 1990s I was giving a lecture in Thailand to some scarily elite doctors in posh suits and various high level people. The session was chaired by the then government head of mother and child health. They asked me what was the ?natural? duraiton of bf and I mentioned the evidence for 7 years. At the end the chair and he was delighted to know that 7 years was the norm because that was how long he had breastfed for. He recalled coming home from school in his school uniform and having a little breastfeed before going out to play. His mother conveniently wore a sarong. There are many people around the world like him, but they don?t tell their stories because they are shy and as their societies get westernised and reduce bf time they don?t mention it. I think they should boast and feel superior. Maybe some do.
Hi Pooter very good comment for me. Anger wanes as you get older. I just get sad nowadays. But really anger can be a good energiser. Channel it cleverly into action, use your brain. Remind yourself that those advertising copywriters know not what they do, they are just termites in the colony. Being angry at individuals does not change the world for the better, using it as a fuel to organise and find creative strategies does.
Look at Nelson Mandela, he was angry with apartheid but he used his non-aggressive style to persuade and shift. He wasn?t filled with rage and used his brains, emotional intelligence and humanity to change things in a different way.
Dear Foxytocin yes I remember you. I loved Fast Food Nation too. I am so cheered up when I know there are people like you who are keeping ahead of the knowledge and have a vision. I am gradually slowing down so now I can rely on you to speed things up.
Hi fruitshootsandheaves All depends whether you stand on your head to breastfeed.