EU Referendum: Webchat with Alan Johnson MP, Tuesday 24 May at 12.30pm

[BojanaMumsnet]

Hello

We’re very pleased to announce a webchat with Alan Johnson MP on Tuesday 24 May at 12.30pm. Alan is the Chair of the official ‘Labour In for Britain’ campaign, aiming to persuade voters to keep the UK in the EU.

Alan entered Parliament as Labour MP for Hull West and Hessle in 1997 and filled a wide variety of cabinet positions in both the Blair and Brown governments, including Health Secretary, Home Secretary and Education Secretary. He has also published two award-winning memoirs, ‘This Boy’ and ‘Please Mr Postman’.

Please do join the chat on Tuesday, or if you can’t make it, please leave a question here in advance. And do bear in mind the webchat guidelines - one question each only (follow-ups allowed if there’s time) and please do be polite.

The EU referendum will be held on 23 June (and yes, we are doing our utmost to line up some ‘Out’ campaigners for webchats too!)

Thanks
MNHQ

[AlanJohnsonMP]

@CFSKate

I also am undecided and feeling scared.
My worries about remaining,
Too much immigration - I don't want to build all over the countryside to house whoever wants to come here. Quality of life/environment matters.
I read you can't have open borders and a welfare state - I am disabled and need the welfare state.
I read the EU is not democratic and that decisions are made by people that we didn't vote for, and the people we did vote for, i.e. MPs/MEPs don't have so much say. People fight to get the vote, why would we give up its power?

I understand your worries, particularly in the light of so much misinformation that's been drip-fed to the British public over the years by a Eurosceptic press.

Let's look at each of these issues carefully.

Firstly, we do not have open borders. Free movement within the European Union has been part of the deal since we signed up 43 years ago. It's the reason why 2.2 million Brits live and work in other EU countries.

It's why there is a reciprocal health service agreement for the many Brits who retire to Spain for instance, to receive treatment without having to come back to use the NHS.

As for its democratic legitimacy, it was our sovereign Parliament who voted in 1971 for Britain to become members of the EU and can decide at any time to repeal that legislation. Our Parliament has also agreed to every major change form the Single European Act to enlargement, when 10 new members joined. And the vote in Parliament was such that not a single MP walked through the No lobby (ie it was unanimous).

As for the decisions reached in Brussels, they are confined to issues that we all gain advantage by sharing with other countries, such as trade, competition, the environment and preservation of fish stocks. The only country in the world that doesn't cede any of its sovereignty to anyone is North Korea. We would not be giving up our power or the vote by remaining in the EU. A vote to leave would mean Britain turning its back on the huge advantages of working with our neighbours on our continent has brought in 70 years of peace since the end of the Second World War.

[Ganma1]

Digital gaming - second in the world to whom? USA? They're not in the EU. The Isle of Man? Neither are they. Does that include online gambling? I don't want the UK to be a leader in this particularly pernicious and corrupting industry (gambling). Indeed, if we were outside the EU maybe we could pass our own laws to limit this modern day curse.

[Chickenbrain2009]

Not just Housing. A local school nearby was unable to place 100 local children. What is the point of having a catchment area when your catchment area is, in effect, the whole of the EU?

[AlanJohnsonMP]

@Limer

I have family in Hull and think very highly of Alan Johnson. I've read both his memoir books.

Sadly I'll be working when the web chat is live, but I'd like to ask Alan how the Labour party can support Remain? Thousands of Brits are thrown into the underclass scrapheap because EU migrants are prepared to accept lower wages and worse working conditions. Alan's book "Please Mr Postman" has chapter after (endless) chapter about union negotiations he's made and won, to improve working conditions for UK postmen back in the Seventies - but now he's prepared to chuck all that away?

Alan went on strike to win better working conditions for postmen. Nowadays, anyone going on strike (or even admitting to belonging to a trade union) would be dismissed and replaced without an eyelid being batted. And the Labour party is behind this? Surely they realise that if labour is unlimited, the bosses are laughing all the way to the bank?

Hi,

It's difficult to imagine how the Labour party could not have supported us remaining in the EU, given that we are an internationalist party that believes in solidarity.

We had a unanimous decision at our conference - 93% of our MPs signed up to Labour In for Britain and every major affiliated union, ie the ones who support the workers you are talking about, is supporting our continued membership.

If you take a glance at the people seeking to convince the British public to leave, you won't find many philanthropists or people with a track record of fighting for trade union rights.

The fact is that Europe has provided through its social dimension, protection for workers to a level unprecedented in our history. The minimum wage is of course an issue for Parliament but the right to paid holiday, time off for emergencies, for part-timers to get the same hourly rate as full-timers, those on temporary contracts to get the same wage as those on permanent contracts, the right to paternity and maternity leave, the introduction of the European Works Councils and TUPE (which protects terms and conditions when a company has been taken over) are all guaranteed by Europe.

There are legitimate issues about exploitation which the Agency Workers Directive (another part of the social dimension) helps to avoid.

Walking away from all of this so that Britain can become at offshore, anything goes, race to the bottom, certainly does not appeal to me.

[Ganma1]

What difference will it make if Turkey are a member of EU or not once they have free visa access to the EU as promised in the recent deal by the EU? It isn't as simple as Remain are claiming - that they will not be joining "for a very long time". Turkey has been the center of forged documents and people trafficking and won't this just get worse once free visa acceess for Turkish citizens is allowed?

[AlanJohnsonMP]

@A4Document

Is Britain capable of being a great country without the EU?

I tend to think that Britain is a great country because of our ability to look outwards and engage with the rest of the world. I listened to some on the Brexit side who always bang on about Europe being something that's done to us with Britain portrayed as the 6 stone weakling on the beach, having sand kicked in its face. I think this is part of a superiority complex that confuses nationalism with patriotism.

Britain's values of freedom and democracy are not exclusive to us and we should be working with other countries who have similar objectives to solve the problems we all face in an increasingly inter-dependent world.

[Chickenbrain2009]

But I was in Iceland a few months ago and they have reciprocal arrangements for healthcare, and they are not part of the EU. You cant have a reciprocal arrangement with another country without being part of the EU. They are two separate things. Why would we want to cede sovereignty when we can negotiate agreements anyway?. I think thats a red herring myself...more designed to try and frighten people.

[WhirlwindHugs]

If you take a glance at the people seeking to convince the British public to leave, you won't find many philanthropists or people with a track record of fighting for trade union rights.

Very true Alan!

[Chickenbrain2009]

Sorry, should have read CAN have an agreement without ceeding sovereignty.

[AlanJohnsonMP]

@Ganma1

What difference will it make if Turkey are a member of EU or not once they have free visa access to the EU as promised in the recent deal by the EU? It isn't as simple as Remain are claiming - that they will not be joining "for a very long time". Turkey has been the center of forged documents and people trafficking and won't this just get worse once free visa acceess for Turkish citizens is allowed?

Turkey has a very important role in resolving the refugee crisis. That crisis won't go away if Britain leaves the EU and in my view, we have a moral responsibility to work with others to resolve them.

The recent agreement approved by our Government only allowed 90-day visa access to the very small proportion of Turks (around 4%) who have a passport. It is not free movement and the quid pro quo is for Turkey to play a much more role in preventing people trafficking from their shores.

As for forged documents, this is not uniquely a Turkish problem. And again, we have to work with others to resolve it. I'm afraid that the leave side are engaged in the biggest scare story of all, by firstly producing a poster which says that Turkey will join the EU when that can only happen if Britain votes for them to join and at best, will take 30-40 years to even get to that point. And by the ludicrous claim that somehow 75 million Turkish people are going to be congregating at our borders. The Turkish community in Britain makes an important contribution to our society and Turkey as a secular state will be an important player in future debates about the major problems that threaten our security.

[AlanJohnsonMP]

@Chickenbrain2009

But I was in Iceland a few months ago and they have reciprocal arrangements for healthcare, and they are not part of the EU. You cant have a reciprocal arrangement with another country without being part of the EU. They are two separate things. Why would we want to cede sovereignty when we can negotiate agreements anyway?. I think thats a red herring myself...more designed to try and frighten people.

You make a really important point. But here are the facts.

Iceland is one of several countries (including Norway and Switzerland) where the government wanted to join the EU but were unable to win popular support. There was terrific goodwill among EU member states towards Iceland. A good will that's unlikely to be in place for us if we wrench ourselves away from the EU after 43 years of membership. The main issue is this: Iceland has access to the Single Market, and accept almost all of the conditions including free movement. They have absolutely no say in how Europe operates. That and the reciprocal arrangements you mention, may be fine for a country with a population of less than the city of Hull, that I represent, but it would not be right for a country like Britain and indeed the reciprocal healthcare arrangement would in my view be an early victim of a vote to leave.

The important issue is that Iceland have ceded sovereignty in order to sign up to the EU free market. They have no control, neither do Norway and Switzerland.

[Janefromdowntheroad]

The response re not having open borders is utterly disingenuous

As long as you have an EU passport and you're not a criminal (that we know of as many EU criminals have slipped through) then you can come here without let or hindrance. Regardless of contribution, skills or intent. How is that not an open border?

[Ganma1]

"the very small number of Turks (4%) who have a passport" - there is nothing to prevent all 75 million applying for a passport now that they have an opportunity to work in the EU! Isn't this a typical case of misusing statistics (4%) to prove a point?

[AlanJohnsonMP]

@Janefromdowntheroad

Hi Alan

Anecdotally both in real life and online there seems to have been a rise in first time voters registering for this vote. People who previously have never had an interest in voting.

There is evidence to show that turnout is lower amongst the working class than any other social class.

Given they are more likely to vote for Brexit why do you think this vote had galvanised them to register for this vote?

The short answer is I don't know. But I hope the reason why more first-time voters are registering is that this is a much more important and profound decision than even a General Election. It could well be that people are registering to vote to leave but I suspect (and hope) that we're seeing more 18-24 year olds registering in response to a very comprehensive campaign by universities, the NUS, the Electoral Commission and others to make sure that that under-represented group registers to vote.

They have until June 7th.

You're right about turnout being lower amongst working class communities. There's a whole issue here around feeling of alienation and anti-politics. It may also be a feeling that in General Elections their votes don't matter because they don't live in marginal seats and are unlikely to influence the outcome. In this referendum, every vote counts equally. And I hope that message is getting across because it doesn't matter if the vote is for remain or leave, it needs to be a high turnout so that it is a genuine expression of the public's view.

[AlanJohnsonMP]

@Janefromdowntheroad

The response re not having open borders is utterly disingenuous

As long as you have an EU passport and you're not a criminal (that we know of as many EU criminals have slipped through) then you can come here without let or hindrance. Regardless of contribution, skills or intent. How is that not an open border?

I don't accept the disingenuous allegation at all. An open border applies in Schengen countries where there is no requirement to be checked at all.

That doesn't apply here. And around 6,000 people have been refused entry. For instance, under Schedule 7 of the Terrorism Act 2000. As for people let through without let or hindrance, that is exactly the same for Brits choosing to go and live abroad. Here's a question for you as an obvious supporter of Leave - in fact, there's two questions: Firstly, if we leave, how would you stop people crossing from the Republic of Ireland into Northern Ireland. Secondly, London has 17 million tourists a year, over half of whom come from other EU countries. How will you differentiate between the Polish plumber and the Polish tourist? My expectation is that the benefits of the benefits of the Single Market are too great to lose and that the likely outcome for Leave is a Norwegian solution, which means accepting free movement anyway.

[AlanJohnsonMP]

Really enjoyed Mumsnet and my plate of chocolate digestives. On current frequency, I'll see you all again in 2024 in time for the next referendum!

[PirateSmile]

Hmm.

[Chickenbrain2009]

I am sorry, but that answer makes no sense to me. When I was in Iceland the people there told me that they had looked at the EU and decided against it. OK. But are you SERIOUSLY trying to tell me that the EU wouldn't want to negotiate reciprocal care when it would be clearly to the benefit of their citizens? In effect you are saying if we leave the EU is going to behave in a spiteful way to 'punish' us even if their own citizens lose out. If I were to accept that then I would have to see the EU as an organisation more bent on retribution than the best interests of its citizens. Alternatively, they wouldn't behave in that way and would want to deal. I resent the idea that the EU, as an organisation which you say is bent on democracy would behave in a retributive way towards the country which had decided to leave by a democratic vote. If life is going to be made such hell for us, then in effect you are saying that staying in is Hobsons choice, and we should not dare to oppose them.

[slug]

On the subject of Project Fear, did anybody else sit open mouthed at the Leave campaign's ad last night on BBC? It didn't bother with words apart from £35 million per week to the EU (with no mention of how much comes back in various forms) The advert mostly consisted of:

1. Poorly done graphic of all the hoardes of new potential immigrants from potential new EU member states
   

1. Think how many hospitals could be built with £35 million per week?
   

Picture of run down waiting room and grumpy patients and staff (Daily Mail sad face worthy) Caption: Britain in the EU

Picture of bright new hospital and happy faces. Caption:Britain outside the EU.

They obviously couldn't think of any other arguments because the whole lot was repeated twice from start to finish. It even made my disinterested teenager snort with derision

[Chickenbrain2009]

Well, is that IT! Sheesh, what a disappointment. I felt patronised.

[ThroughThickAndThin01]

This chat has done nothing to allay my worries about staying in! The only argument i can see for staying, is for peace and stability. A lot of questions seem to have been avoided.

All the best though Alan. I am a fan (generally).

[ThroughThickAndThin01]

slug I agree, they need to up their game if they want to win over undecided voters.

[claig]

"Erdogan poem: Court bans German comedian Jan Böhmermann from repeating controversial verses
...
Prosecutors haven't yet decided whether to file charges under a little-used German law forbidding insult to foreign heads of state, which could be scrapped by 2018.

The case has caused outcry from groups advocating freedom of speech, who are calling for the law to be scrapped.

Hugh Williamson, Human Rights Watch’s Europe director, said: “The poem is certainly highly offensive, but it is in situations such as this when we need to stand up for protection of free speech.

“Germany bears responsibility for having such a bad law on the books and the sooner it is repealed, the better.”

www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/erdogan-poem-court-bans-german-comedian-jan-boehmermann-from-repeating-sexual-verses-a7035896.html

Is this EU free speech?

[Janefromdowntheroad]

Chicken yes think that was what he as saying. Basically they'll go off in a big sulk. The same people who were awarded the Nobel Peace Prize

[claig]

'Actually the EU is all about democracy, freedom of speech and the rule of law.'

Was Alan reading off a crib sheet handed to him?