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MNHQ here: after your thoughts on a possible campaign on postnatal care

405 replies

RowanMumsnet · 27/05/2016 13:43

Hello all

As lots of you will hopefully know, we at MNHQ run campaigns every now and then on issues that really matter to MNers. Ongoing campaigns include better miscarriage care (keep an eye out for developments on that in the next month or so), support for families caring for children with disabilities and additional needs (MNHQ has signed up to a new campaigning alliance on that and we'll fill you in on what's happening soon), and rape myths.

We've been thinking for a while, though, that many of the most urgent and upsetting things our users talk about fall under the heading of - frankly - inadequate postnatal care.

MNHQ was involved in the National Maternity Review recently, and even among the senior NHS professionals there it was evident that there's a consensus that postnatal is the 'Cinderalla' of maternity services: underfunded, poorly resourced and rarely thought about - except when it goes horribly wrong.

Obviously this is a huge area and a very complex issue to address - so we'd like to hear from you:

  • is this something you'd like to see MNHQ get into?
  • which aspects of postnatal care need to be improved? We're already thinking about things like: breastfeeding support; perinatal mental health; staffing and conditions on postnatal wards; partners on postnatal wards (we know most of you aren't in favour Grin); care in the community from health visitors and community midwives; injury care for women post-birth, and longer-term care for pelvic floors; the six-week check and whether it really works for women and babies... but we're sure there are more.
  • what solutions would you like to see? What's needed (up to and including money) to improve postnatal services for women and their families?

    The aim of this thread is to find out whether you think this is a good idea overall, and to get a sense of which issues and which problems you think need attention - so please fire away and let us know your thoughts. When we've got something to work with we'll put together a survey for all our users so that we can get a bit of data to help us make some decisions.

    Thanks
    MNHQ
OP posts:
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SalemSaberhagen · 04/06/2016 13:15

My labour was incredibly traumatic, but the midwives were very supportive there. It was on the ward I had my issues.

The midwife disapprovingly asking me 'is her dad foreign' when she saw DD's Mongolian blue spot.

Not one person checked my breastfeeding. Not one.

When we were on the ward, DD got taken to have a cannula put in. My legs were still a bit numb from the epidural. The midwife pointed me in the direction of the shower and watched me stagger in. I just sat under the water and cried.

Tutting when I asked if they could help me change DD's baby grow because I was scared of knocking her cannula out.

The bounty woman saying 'yeah I wouldn't take pictures whilst she still has that', after I refused her services. The that in question was an angry forceps mark after she had to be pulled from me due to suspected sepsis.

Food wasn't brought to your bed. You had to queue up at the end of a corridor, leaving your baby alone on the ward. The people serving would give food to the partners, even though they weren't supposed to, with a nudge nudge, wink wink. By the time I got there (many, many stitches and a newborn that was feeding almost constantly), the best food was taken. By the partners.

The menacing DP of the woman opposite me who openly watched me try to breastfeed. When I shut the curtain, the midwife scolded me for doing so.

My hospital allowed partners to stay overnight. The DP mentioned above made me feel scared and intimidated.



MN absolutely needs to do a campaign. My experience really clouded my first few weeks with DD.

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waterrat · 04/06/2016 13:39

Actually I should add some positivity. At home to hospital in Hackney the midwife who delivered my baby came to find me on the post natal ward to explain what had happened and why there had been emergency intervention. She was kind and so were all the other midwives on a very busy ward. I was there 5 Days and everyone did their best to make it bearable. In my other birth at South london hospital I was discharged within 6 hours of Birth which was what I wanted.

I actually think it wpuld be ao much better if women cpuld go home and get full support services from.home visit teams.

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AntiqueSinger · 04/06/2016 14:54

Yes definately please tackle this MN! As well as some of the excellent points that have already been made, I would like to put a point in about how young mums can be treated really badly.

I have always looked younger than my age and when I had DS at 22 I looked frankly like I was sixteen. I was also not married. The assumptions and judgements made by staff really showed in their attitude.

Soon after my labour a nurse told me to start breastfeeding DS. My breasts were hard as rocks. When I couldn't get DS latched on, the nurse grabbed my nipple which was incredibly sensitive and started roughly kneading it between her fingers to 'get it in the right shape' when I told her it hurt she said I was a 'silly little girl, and how could I expect DS small mouth to feed when my nipples were so tough' and it was my responsibility to have 'worked on them beforehand'. My Midwife was pants. I had an episiotomy, which I found fairly traumatic, but no one talked to me about what to expect, how long it would take heal; It was treated like 'just one of those things' all part of the process. My vagina became very swollen and painful. Yet when I asked for someone to look at it, I was made to feel like I was just being precious. My labia is now much larger on one side (not that DH cares) but I do. I desperately wanted to use the bathroom and couldn't get anyone's attention to remove my catheter and on and on. The wards were noisy. Nurses played the radio in the ward all throughout the night shift. I remember the song that kept playing. It was Mel C and Brian Adams 'Baby when you're gone' I know it word for word because it repeated so many times. I got no sleep even when visiting times were over. I noticed a really big difference to the way the older mothers with partners were treated. Possibly because they were more likely to complain. I couldn't wait to leave.

I like to think it has improved but to this day when I think about it I get very emotional because it absolutely ruined what should have been a time of joy. There was one very kind nurse whom I remember to this day who patiently sat with me, helped me to get DS latched on properly. Talked to me like I was a person. It was a real eye opener. And this was at a hospital that boasts about the level of care it offers. Have gone back once for DS 2 and it was slightly better but no where near good enough.

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BlueyDragon · 04/06/2016 16:40

Please do run a campaign on this. Post-natal care in my experience (2DCs) was rubbish the first time and only better the second because DH and I knew what could be coming.

No-one ever explained why DC1 needed a ventouse delivery, which would have been helpful to me in rationalising it. Poor breastfeeding help, it was obvious something wasn't right but the response from NHS was a shrug and from the NCT was "But what do you think happened in medieval times if women didn't feed their babies?". Really good BF support, from a decent NHS counsellor, made the difference between DC1 being bf for 6 weeks (ish) and DC2 being bf for 8 months. And the mental health support was a checklist; second time round I told the midwife I'd had mild PND (which I recognised when the fog finally lifted) and I got a daily visit after DC2 was born.

But I had to be ahead of the game to access any of this, and first timers aren't in a position to do that.

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calamityjam · 04/06/2016 20:26

I used to be a community midwifery support worker. At the time, it was a new role and the midwives were very wary of us. Our role was poorly defined and the older midwives were very reluctant to hand over responsibilities to us whilst complaining about their work load. I feel the role could be invaluable to many families post birth. I was extensively trained in infant feeding and smoking cessation, I ran parentcraft classes and ward tours and I was on hand for general baby care advice and ran an infant feeding drop in. I was level 2 care trained, although I am now part way through a degree in working with children, young people and families. I believe that every new mum should have a least 2 visits from a cmsw as well as their midwife visits as this would allow for a more holistic service and take the pressure off community midwives.

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Verso · 05/06/2016 05:24

Yes please do campaign on this. My experience was that all the postnatal midwives were brusque, unfeeling and shockingly rude, apart from one.

The pain and terror of my first delivery and the complications afterwards are still with me. A little sympathy would have been nice (and free!) Instead I got shouted at and bullied. DD2 was a planned caesarean as it took several years of physio and counselling for ptsd to recover after DD1... forceps should be banned I think...

I am amazed the NHS thinks it's appropriate for women to fetch their own tray of food from the end of a corridor after either severe pelvic floor tearing, or abdominal surgery. I know you need to get up and about to avoid dvt, but carrying food? I think there's something seriously wrong here.

It was all unnecessarily cruel IMO. I saw it second time around in the way they bullied a young mum opposite who was struggling to breastfeed.

Writing this has brought it all back... Sad

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Verticalvenetianblinds · 05/06/2016 08:17

I had excellent post natal care from nhs, ds2 was on scbu for 2 weeks, I was allowed to sleep on the unit and had pretty much 1:1 care. Breastfeeding via pump for first week then support every time he latched from then on. They would also take him away to wind him and put him down so I got 3 hours sleep in a go. They also fed me. I healed well and quickly because of this. However my baby was very poorly, it was a terribly scary time and we were on special care. I do believe strongly that the old fashioned maternity homes would be the answer, we would heal better, crack breastfeeding and have help bonding. Surely the costs associated with not breastfeeding/pnd that stems from not bonding and other post natal problems would be reduced if more money was spent on those crucial first couple of weeks? More postnatal support is a must and not just more 10 minute visits from a stranger asking if we are ok (which of course we answer yes even if we're not!)

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RedToothBrush · 05/06/2016 08:29

Spoke to a friend yesterday who has recently given birth.

She was told by a midwife to make a complaint over something because " managers didn't listen to staff"

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Wheredidsummergo112 · 05/06/2016 09:55

Another thing that would be useful is more consistency of care during post natal period. I had an assigned midwife but for some reason I saw a different midwife at each antenatal and postnatal appointment. If they want to spot PND or any postnatal complication it's surely easier if there is a consistent person who will spot patterns and build a relationship where the woman feels they can confide in their midwife.

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AgentPineapple · 05/06/2016 17:58

Think this is a fantastic idea, a lot of people don't even know they have it and find it hard to ask for help, also would be interesting if you could include depression during pregnancy which can lead to pnd

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MrsWooster · 05/06/2016 19:57

Already posted once but forgot to add:
Particular focus on stitching. I know you mentioned pp injury etc but even 'ordinary', relatively minor repairs can have a long term adverse effect if they go even a tiny bit wrong. Everyone accpets that things are different in the fanjo department after having children but surely different doesn't have to mean worse?

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baba5 · 05/06/2016 22:19

I have had five beautiful babies. Post-natal care has been poor with all of them for different reasons. #1 4 weeks early horrific labour (96 hours between waters breaking/start of contractions and baby actually arriving) no1 explained that my baby would need a feeding tube or what to expect. When I went into labour I didn't realise how much 4 weeks can make a difference. Also was 18 years old and needed someone to take a bit of time to make sure I was ok but no1 did. #2 group b strep. Not explained properly, laboured on a drip no real support. Broke down in front of hv at about 12 weeks because no1 cared about me (slight exaggeration, hv was really supportive. I got it all out my system n with her help moved forward) but it shouldn't have got that far. #3 homebirth. Straight forward. Amazing labour experience. Baby fed constantly but not effectively for weeks, very low weight gain. I was made to feel bad that I wasn't feeding him well enough so moved to bottle feeding. At 12 weeks discovered he had a heart condition causing the feeding problems and weight loss, all the symptoms were there but not spotted instead it was easier to make me feel bad about it. #4 spd. No support with this. Because she was baby #4 mw/hv's treated me.like I knew it all and didn't need help and so I didn't ask for anything as felt like I shouldn't. I could have done with bf support but muddled through alone (successfully, but not the point. #5 planned homebirth. Baby born at 01.45am...within half hour of him arriving I was asked if I would like to go to the hospital at about 10.30am for mw check-up to save them coming out...luckily I was still running on adrenaline and suggested that at less than 12 hours old I would not be bundling myself and my baby in the car to go to them and would in fact be in my pj's, snuggled up with my baby not worrying about getting to an appointment on time. They came to me instead!
Even now though I feel like I am taking up time if I ask any questions. #5 has a Mongolian blue spot, I've never seen one before luckily my friend has and said that's what it was (I was worrying he had bruising?!?) so I popped along to hv clinic to ask them and get it in his notes so it isn't questioned at a later date. HV was really rude, shocked I didn't know what it was and sighed like I was wasting her time. I may of had 5 children but all of the labours and postnatal period have been very very different and my personal circumstances have been different (juggling toddlers and babies AND currently the worst toddlers/babies/preteens and a TEENAGER) I possibly need a friendly face and listening ear more than I did with #1!

So in a very longwinded way...more support for everyone in every aspect is very much needed.

Oh and if someone wants to support me through my painful lack of stomach muscles (huge gap) that would be appreciated because tbh nobody gives a monkeys Smile

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TrivialBlah · 06/06/2016 00:24

Yes, reading a previous post reminded me of shuffling down to get food in the morning, with Ds in his wheelie cot type thing. I was still extremely sore from labour and subsequent operation, to manually remove placenta, could hardly walk but this seems like it's deemed necessary to get us new Mums up and moving about as quick as possible.

I don't think age has anything to do with the way you're treated, it's a lottery. I was 36 but was still treated badly.

It's almost like all the compassion had been zapped out of the staff. I felt completely bewildered. I had two lovely midwives who helped me deliver Ds but the kindness was left far behind once I left the delivery suite.

If it was now I would certainly use social media as an avenue to report how dreadful it felt to be on a ward, which should have been so much a place of feeling safe and secure, a place where you felt nurtured with this new life you'd just brought into this world. Instead it was a place I wanted to run very far away from.

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Allatseainthemidlands · 06/06/2016 07:48

In the Netherlands you automatically get a week's full time home help after delivery. Less exhaustion, no housework, better opportunities to establish feeding, a friendly face- fewer post natal issues all round. One week of paid help probably costs the state less than a single GP visit and prescription for anti depressants ....

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MyBreadIsEggy · 06/06/2016 08:11

Yes! Please get behind this!
My labour and delivery was quite a good experience, but that was then ruined by a horrible stay on the postnatal ward.
I was shown to a bed, and then just left there - I wasn't told where a toilet was or offered any drinking water, I ended up asking the lady in the bed next to me where the toilet was and if I had to get my own water from somewhere Hmm (After asking a few times, I was brought a jug of water a few hours later, but by then my DH was back and had brought supplies from the shop!). I also asked for paracetamol when the nurses came round offering pain killers - I said yes I would like some every time they came round, but it never appeared. So I ended up taking my own paracetamol from my handbag. I was also never given the help I asked for multiple times with getting DD's latch right (both in hospital and when I was at home).
It was clear that the problem at my hospital was massive under-staffing. There were too many new mum's and babies and nowhere near enough staff to look after us all properly.

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ayria · 06/06/2016 14:47

Everyone accpets that things are different in the fanjo department after having children but surely different doesn't have to mean worse?

YES! But we are made to live with it regardless. I am left in a worse state because my stitches came apart than I would have been if they hadn't. I don't know if I was unlucky or if it was actually an inadequate repair.

If it causes a woman constant discomfort and pain why should she have to try and prove herself to numerous GPs, get given creams that I think are placebo and then have to fight for something to be done about it? If they just listened they could have saved more money for the NHS. It's almost as though they don't think a woman's body after childbirth injuries and injuries inflicted upon her by staff isn't worth the hassle of doing a decent repair job in the first place but to then not bother helping her when she has continuous issues for years.

Anyone else that had constant pain from an injury, it would be sorted. but after childbirth, that's it, you're sub-human now.

Yes, our bodies are different after babies but I'm not asking for my damn stretchmarks to be eradicated, I'm asking to have my most delicate and intimate part of my body to be put back together so I can sit properly! It's sad to think back and see pictures of when I had my son knowing that I wasn't even aware of what had been done to me and the extent of the stitches that had been put into me that would then cause me problems that no one will listen to. I have to look past the darkness and misery to see anything good about my son's birth and the months after... there were so many missed opportunites where someone could have sat and listened to me and informed about a debrief to find out why I was having to suffer a gruelling recovery from something that was done to my body that was not at all explained to me which later developed into PTSD.

And to add to the ward complaints... I hadn't had any sleep for 2 days and when I finally drifted off for about an hour I was woken early in the morning by ward staff openng everyone's curtains all of a sudden. Now it was a postnatal ward... I could have been breastfeeding or anything for all she knew, she didn't discreetly check with me at all before pulling the curtain wide open. I was then told to get up out of bed and go get a coffee down the hall. My sheets were bloodstained and I felt like a little child that had just wet themselves and being scolded for bleeding. I couldn't walk, I couldn't even feel myself and I didn't know where this coffee room was either!

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RedToothBrush · 06/06/2016 19:07

I have a CQC for a hospital.

In the report it states the following:
The trust reported that the maternity unit had no closures between July 2013 and December 2014.

Yet I have just found a local newspaper article dated Sept 2013 stating that the entire MLU at the hospital was closed until the end of the month due to staff shortages. Women due to give birth there, could either choose to give birth at the CLU on the same site or have a homebirth.

This is not mentioned at all in the CQC report.

Technically the maternity unit did not close as CLU services continue to be available but if the MLU unit is closed then saying there had been 'no closures' is not factually correct and this complete omission from the report is highly questionable and a manipulation of the facts and should definitely have been mentioned as part of the report.

Or is it just me?

There are other things in this report I am really not happy with.

I am at slightly staggered and appalled at what I'm finding.

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JedRambosteen · 06/06/2016 19:40

I admire your tenacity Red. I have a friend who undertook a similarly Herculean task out of indignation at the adequacy of a particular service and FoI'd all & sundry. She's had some success in getting improvements made, though I can't say more without potentially outing myself. It would be interesting to see how much noise and traction the massed ranks of MNers could achieve with concerted effort and a standardised approach to slogging through all the data/reports.

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JedRambosteen · 06/06/2016 19:47

And also, the bottom line with your question about the closure of the MLU is not whether there was technically still a service in operation, but whether the closure of the MLU reduced the available service to the detriment of women's care and/or choices.

Having given birth during the closure of 1 local MLU, it all but sent the CLU into meltdown - I should know, as I was in for a week, 3 nights of it antenatally on the postnatal wards because there were no beds in the antenatal ward! The failed induction was partly because they couldn't give the prostaglandin to protocol due to "my" bed having been allocated elsewhere before the next dose was due & them not wanting to risk pushing me into active labour without a bed lined up.

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Wheredidsummergo112 · 06/06/2016 22:56

RedToothBrush I reported a trust to Which as they said the MLU hadn't been closed at all in the previous 12 months but I knew it had been closed as I wasn't allowed to birth there for that reason. Which updated the website but they said the stat came from the head of midwifery who I later heard refer to the closure and say they weren't closed the MLU was being used for postnatal (due to staff shortages) so was in fact open. Very misleading. Yes that's closed to anyone who wants to use the MLU for the actual purpose it's there for! We want to give birth there not visit afterwards for a cup of tea!! I expect you will find more cases of this. I'll PM you the trust name and dates and you can check the report to see if they reported to the CQC.

Also, I agree with the post above. The hospital was so busy as a consequence of the closure of MLU that they strongly advised me to go elsewhere. I ended up in a location that hadn't been on my list of possibilities at all and didn't consider it safe for our circumstances but there was no choice.

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RedToothBrush · 06/06/2016 23:31

Yes please do PM me the name of the hospital and I will see if its reported. The reports are all over the place and very inconsistent as to what information is in there, what section its under. Also some trusts have been inspected at earlier or later dates so there is no guarantee that it will be covered anyway.

I have to say, for anyone looking to see how consistent inspections are and how much disparity in care there is, the CQC's reports really don't help much.

For example some reports look at the current midwife ratio actually on the wards at the time of the inspection. Some look at what ratio is funded - without taking into consideration sick leave or holiday. Some look at averages over a period of time. Some look at the highest and lowest levels over a period. Some reports mention the rate of sick leave. Others don't. Some talk about particular problems over holiday periods, but others don't.

I've got to be honest in saying that it looks like a deliberate fudge to get the best looking figure in the report. I could be wrong, but that's what I'm seeing with inexperienced eyes. Maybe someone can enlighten me as to why this is good practice.

To me this means it doesn't reflect what's really going on at the hospital and how it compares to others, the national average or what is recommended for the patient make up of that particular hospital.

Its almost like a made up number rather than a proper standardised way of doing it for the purposes of reporting and that to me should be what the CQC is there for; to critically look at the information given to them and present in a way that gives a true reflection of the way the hospital is running. Not to make the hospital look good or bad.

I think there are exceptions to where the information is less relevant and could be misleading if standardised (cases where midwife loads are spread over hospitals particularly in the SW) but for the most part I think its poor practice and reduces transparency massively.

I need a wise bod, to advise me!

This particular principle of a ratio does seem to be one that is regarded as one that is important and is in all reports I've seen, but it also looks like its being pretty much abused to make hospitals look better than perhaps they are.

I am not one for targets - the ratio shouldn't be a number set in stone as that's not how maternity should work - but how you calculate and present that number should be in the same way and you then caveat whether this number is good / bad / ugly for the needs of that particular hospital.

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RedToothBrush · 07/06/2016 08:33

Wheredidsummergo112 that Trust has not been inspected since your visit.

Hopefully it will be soon as they are catching up with anywhere that hasn't been given a rating under the current system.

I will try and keep an eye out.

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RedToothBrush · 07/06/2016 11:13

From the SUMMARY of another hospital (so worthy enough not just to be in the report but in the summary of the service)

The maternity unit closed eight times between July 2013 and December 2014. In March 2015, the EPAU was closed for five days due to staffing problems

And yet a MLU unit closed for 2 weeks due to staffing problems is not even worthy of comment in the detail of findings because women can use CLU services or have a home birth?

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RedToothBrush · 08/06/2016 15:57

Having spent a very long time looking through reports, I think I feel that the quality of them has improved somewhat in those published this year (these would be ones inspected a few months prior to that, but the reports take a while to compile and publish).

I do think there are still very real issues with some though, and there is a culture of hospitals trying to get one over on the CQC. I wonder just how robust the CQC will be on the subject. Especially once the spotlight moves off maternity.

My main beef is definitely with the 'Caring' Element of how they assess maternity.

There is a real lack of quality to it, even now and the quality of evidence is not really explicitly stated.

A lack or low level of complaints is used as a marker of there being no problem - rather than an exploration of the demographic of the population the hospital serves and what barriers they may face to making a complaint. A hospital in a deprived area which has a high number of women with learning difficulties and can't speak English is unlikely to have many complaints. (Report from May 2015).

Another example for you
Recent feedback from women indicated that their confidence in maternity services staff had improved. The results of the 2013 national maternity survey found that this Trust scored close to the national average on the question about the kindness and understanding of staff after a birth. We received mainly positive comments about care on the postnatal ward. However, one mother spoke to us about lack of support on the postnatal ward after a difficult birth, after which her baby was in special care.

Just to point out that this report was done in Jan 2015 and they are pulling out statistics for the Trust as a whole from 2013 relating to the kindness and understanding of staff after a birth and they also state that they received ‘mainly positive comments’ about care on the post natal ward.

This is based on interviews with nine patients to begin with and this was whilst there is an inspection in progress. So that one mother represented over 10% of cases (and still assuming that all of those nine patients were all postnatal patients rather than antenatal or gynaecology). This is also in the context that even with the unannounced visits they are so close after the announced ones, you would expect everyone to be on their best behaviour still just in case!

The report really down plays the feedback it gets as being 'unreliable' which I think is a worrying attitude.

Especially when you also consider the following:
NHS Friends and Family test (July 2014): the average score for urgent and emergency care was 18, which was worse than the national average of 53. The response rate was 17%, which was worse than the national average of 20.2%.
The average Friends and Family score for inpatients was 65, which was worse than the national average of 73. The response rate was 33%, which was worse than the national average of 38%.
The average Friends and Family score for maternity (antenatal) was 17, which was worse than the England average of 62. The average score for maternity (birth) was 62, which was worse than the England average of 77. The average score for maternity (postnatal) was 30, which was worse than the England average of 65.

Is tucked away in the report, not in the maternity section but in background information to the hospital (and not actually mentioned at all in the main body of the report for the maternity department).

The same report said
Women said that food was adequate and snacks were available outside meal times.

Women told us they fully understood the choices they made and had consented to, such as the options for screening or the reasons for elective caesarean section.

Women were involved in choices about their care, there were initiatives to encourage natural birth.

We observed nursing, midwifery and administrative staff interacting with women with kindness and understanding, even when they were under pressure. Staff demonstrated an awareness of the importance of maintaining women’s dignity and privacy.

Patients reported feeling involved in their care and said how well doctors and midwives explained the care and treatment at antenatal appointments and answered any questions they had.

Which I do think are phrased in a way that really could be potentially misleading as being high quality evidence.

In another report there was one reference I saw pointing to thank you cards of appreciation being used as markers for there being a caring culture at the hospital. Which I thought was pretty much someone writing something under the area for the sake of writing something because they couldn't actually find any other evidence and they had to put something.

Another pointed out helpfully under the headline that leaflets on how to complain were available. (So obviously since people didn't there wasn't a problem I assume is the logic here).

Most of what is written seems to be on the direct observations of what inspectors are seeing - without any discussion about how behaviour might change in the presence of inspectors or in the inspection period (they give 12 weeks notice, then do announced inspections and then do some unannounced ones shortly after). Of course this is going to potentially make somewhere look better than it might normally be.

Then there's the fact that I think women are generally very forgiving about the standard of care because the mentality of 'as long as the baby is ok' and 'the nhs can't afford anymore' is deeply ingrained and perhaps is more common in women than men. I think women will recommend an NHS hospital even if their care is below standard because they accept that and see it as a 'less worse option' if that makes sense.

I would like to see MN draw up and raise awareness of what is acceptable and what is not acceptable for this reason. Perhaps exploring whether women do actually recommend somewhere with this mentality. Or at least exploring the question of care, respect and dignity with specific questions rather than the very broad 'would you recommend this hospital's post natal services to a friend'.

I think that the worse examples of poor care are being picked on family and friends but I think lesser examples are being less picked up on and over looked. Plus the value of friends and family is not being given as much as it should be.

I have an example of a hospital which had just taken over services from another nearby. The CQC report did not pick up on problems and gave it a Good overall rating. Yet the month the change happened friends and family scores went through the floor (the number of incidents also went up). The friends and family figures looked to have been cherry picked as ones BEFORE the change happened. There would have been at least 3 months of data available with much lower scores at the time of the inspection. This is more worrying when you take into context why the inspection was being done in the first place - in part to see that the hospital was coping with transfer of services to the hospital.

The way that maternity units are rated is that you get five scores for each area. If you get 4 goods and one Requires Improvement then the overall score is Good. If you get 3 goods and two Requires Improvement then the overall score is Requires Improvement. The net result of this, that if you get a Good score based on really poor quality evidence the overall rating of the department looks a lot better. This means that putting a rating for the sake of putting something (on the basis of thank you cards for example) is potentially the difference between a Good or Requires Improvement.

Interestingly when James Titcombe's resigned from the National Maternity Review he said this:
“I feel the balance of the maternity review is weighted towards the professional voice.

“Those who have suffered avoidable harm or loss, the very people whose insights and experience we most need to learn from, are not in my view properly represented and are not being heard as clearly as they should.""

Which does tie in very much with what I think is happening in the CQC reports (Noting Mr Titcombe now works for the CQC!).

There does seem to be very much a Them and Us culture between patients and staff coming out in this. The CQC is supposed to serve the public yet, there is a real lack of focus on what the public are actually experiencing.

I have a list of 166 maternity units (this is not all the ones in England - I removed a few from my list because there was less than 10 months out of the last 20 of family and friends data to look at). Of these one scored 'inadequate', four scored 'requires improvement' and 10 scored 'outstanding'. All the rest got good. It seems like this was the far easiest category to get good in, and almost was the default position in the face of little evidence.

One of the ones good inadequate off the back of a group of women who actively requested to speak to the CQC and as a result took part in a focus group. The comments they made strongly echo those on this thread.

Yeah the Friends and Family scores didn't show anything that would suggest a problem. And the CQC's direct observations were all great.

WHY THE DIFFERENCE?

This is the ONLY report I've seen where a group of women actively did something like this. This made the difference between an overall rating of good and requires improvement. Something that I find quite telling and I do think there means there is lots of scope to really hammer home the point about what's going on in the experience of women and what's being put into reviews.

Like I say, I THINK they are actually on to this gap, but I don't think it would hurt to really ramp this up because I don't think there has been too much explicit on this nationally - only for particular hospitals that appear to be failing.

There was a drive to try and encourage hospitals to come up with innovative ideas for patient feed back in March too.
See link
www.england.nhs.uk/2016/03/maternity-patient-feedback/

It mentions this
The #MatExp Challenge Fund was created by NHS England at the request of Ben Gummer, Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Health. His Care Quality portfolio includes improvement initiatives such as the Friends and Family Test and other insight work involving patient feedback. He takes a particular interest in improving maternity services.

Do we know this guy? Another potential target for getting heard?

Is there a potential that MN could be a bridging link to this too on a longer term basis?

With regard to staffing levels, as I mentioned before there's definitely a problem with midwife ratio data in cqc reports though again I think recent ones have vastly improved.

What it doesn't say on any report what the staffing ratios on post natal wards are like. There is a focus on 1 to 1 care in labour and overall ratios but that's it. It does look like the numbers of midwives HAS improved, but what impact its had on post natal care is questionable.

The following two paragraphs are pretty typical of reports.
^The main risk was medical and midwifery staffing. Not every mother was able to have one-to-one care in labour at the current level of staffing. Midwives did not always take breaks and often reported working beyond the end of their shift. We saw that six incidents were recorded on the noticeboard where mothers had not had one-to-one care while in labour during January 2015. However, midwives thought this number was an
underestimate. They also pointed out that prioritising one-to-one care of women in labour at times of staff shortage created a risk that other women did not receive appropriate care. We saw a recent example of a woman not receiving one-to-one care pre-delivery, and the woman's care was compromised as a result.^

The lead midwife in each inpatient area assessed staffing levels for each shift. On identifying risk, and according to the escalation policy, the lead midwife contacted the on-call manager. However, we heard from staff and saw on incident reports that managers were sometimes unavailable. Unfilled shifts were the norm, so midwives were regularly relocated from less critical areas to support the labour ward. The escalation policy was used more often at night than during the day.

So the CQC are aware of the issue. The trouble is when they are doing reports they look at the department as a whole rather than looking at the separate areas of antenatal, birth and post natal much more generally. Maternity differs from other hospital departments because of this clear distinction between stages of care yet this balancing act is not really well reflected in CQC reporting. Instead CQC reports judge maternity as a whole (often also including gynaecology), the net result is that failings are being missed or not given sufficient weight because overall findings are so generalised. Splitting things more clearly and more obviously between each area is only really a matter of how they write up reports rather than extra workload to the CQC.

I do think that MN need to be a little careful about how they campaign here for this reason.

Hence why I campaigning ‘For hospitals to provide sufficient and appropriate staffing levels for all areas of maternity care including appropriate specialist midwives, support staff, senior midwives and consultant cover without compromise’ or something similar that takes into account what seems to be happening is in order to try and focus on one to one care, compromises are being made elsewhere. By campaigning for post natal care alone you actually run the risk of refocusing things and merely shifting it elsewhere!

Also I understand that the new model for funding maternity is hopefully going to tackle some of the issues that are effecting hospitals that take on the more complex cases. Until this kicks in, I think its difficult to push the more money case that hard at the moment, as the only response you’ll get is that its being dealt with. Unless you can highlight a particular area which is cause for concern and needs particular attention – which probably is best in relation to mental health staffing and training.

As for what the CQC put into reports about breastfeeding:
At best there is a paragraph, which usually says no more than the hospital is accredited somehow or is reaching its discharge target. Lots of reports haven't had anything at all.

And stuff about mental health is pretty limited too.

Sorry that's lengthy!



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turkeyboots · 08/06/2016 16:09

I'd support this campaign. I had two planned c sections for various reasons. The difference in care pre surgery and in the immediate post surgery unit to what I received on the post natal ward was shocking. I was another immoblised new mum with no idea what I was supposed to be doing and left unsupported by staff once they kicked DH out. The HCA moved DD in her cot to the end of my bed where I couldn't reach here and then when they finally came back yelled at me for not taking care of her.

Overnights were the worst both times, there seemed to be no nurses or midwives around. Just untrained assistants .

More staff 24hrs a day is the only answer.

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