How To Avoid Coming Across As Aggressive

[NewDadTrying]

Without going into too many specifics, I am a new Dad (chuffed beyond words on that score!), unfortunately circumstances with my ex are not ideal. I have Parental Rights, and she is breastfeeding which is of course brilliant. However this leaves visiting somewhat tricky. We have managed to sidestep any outright hostility so far, but looks like we might headed for a confrontation.

I am reminded of advice given to me by my Solicitor who explained she will be feeling particularly vulnerable the first year, and I should be wary of doing anything that comes off as confrontational. Whilst we both have good reason to be aggrieved at the other, it is my hope we can move past it for our child's sake.

Perhaps justifiably she has been been sniping at me regularly since the birth, which to be honest was like water off a ducks back as I got to see my child, and was worth weathering. Unfortunately she has cottoned onto the fact that by making it increasingly hard to see our baby gets to me. It tears me up a great deal that I am not involved as much as I would wish to be. As I try to be more and more flexible over arranging visits, the less communication I receive. as well as finding nobody home at prearranged times.

Upon suggesting mediation I was accused of coming on too strong, and it seems I have a Hobson's choice between stressing out the mother, or just not getting to see the baby at all. I am usually pretty good at communication and diplomacy, but I am aware there are subtle and not so subtle differences in the way men and women communicate. So what I would like to ask is what is the best way to propose mediation, without her feeling like she is losing control of the situation? (She is someone who has to be in control, and by example of a child she has by a previous marriage involves the Dad only infrequently when it suits her, and I wish to be involved with our child a lot more than he has gotten to have been)

[HerrenaHarridan]

*one kiwi, one tube of nipple cream and

[Piecesofmyheart]

Pass us a kiwi Herrena

[HerrenaHarridan]

Hi NewMumTrying

[HerrenaHarridan]

4 or 5 lovers since they split up. Fuckin hilarious!
That was it for me tbh right up until then I was willing to be reasonable. Lets not forget some women are utterly crazy and some men are lovely ( and unfortunately they always seem to find each other )
However there you are proved right first posters, he is a controlling manipulating knob.
Oh well!

[Piemother]

Gin and Herrena - yes....my ex too. I wonder if he was going to show the thread to his ex if he has successfully manipulated us

[HerrenaHarridan]

Ducking

[HerrenaHarridan]

Gin, fuck I hate it when they do that, or they repeat half the sentence so it means something completely different like they're the fucking daily mail.
I swear my ex used to hallucinate, we would go hang out with friends we'd get home and he'd want me to recount every ducking sentence that had passed between me and someone else and interject with " we'll it sounded like you were offering to give him a blow job"
Real example
In a room full of close friends, in front of my partner of course that's what I said!

[HerrenaHarridan]

Letsmake cookies.
Family mediation can help you draw up a contract to which you are then both bound under contractual law. If one takes the other to court for repeated breach of this contract it will go to family court and either upheld or rewritten by judge.
For future reference
Story of my life at the mo

Op you've been given plenty of sound advice by people who can best explain where your ex is coming from. No body said she could do no wrong, it's just that right now it's tough cookies on you if she does.
Shut up and smile

[GinAndT0nic]

Yes, I tried to help this guy because he reminded me somehow of my x., although, to begin with, i thought that's not fair on him.

Arguments with my x were exhausting because like this OP he was extremely verbose and he would take my words and repeat them back to me but with an entirely different meaning. He would get angry with me about what I thought/felt about him, and he would tell me at length and so convincingly what I thought.

Sorry to say it OP but I think you did your x a favour when you ended the relationship.

[Piemother]

Just read the updated thread backwards. I was muttering the words manipulative and controlling before I read them in posts.
This guy reminds me of EA behaviour when they think if they go through the motions (I had relate in mind) then they can heap more blame on the other party.

Hey op's ex! Over here

[GinAndT0nic]

You say

"However the balance of some opinions seems to be that because she is a mother her actions are almost by default beyond reproach, or must be forgiven, moved beyond etc etc (which again for the record is a place I am really trying reach emotionally within myself so that it doesn't colour anything for our child). Yet any morsel of my own mistakes will be seized upon as validation for earler assumptions. I accept given the purpose of these boards it would be daft in the extreme not to get that reaction from some."

*this paragraph shows that you haven't really absorbed a single word that's been said to you. You feel that it's unjust that we consider her beyond reproach. Whether or not she's beyond reproach is not the issue, and she doesn't have to answer to you any more because you (knocked her up, blamed her for that and then) dumped her.

What do you want from us here?! we've already given you a five point idiot guide on how to navigate your way through this, but you want us to berate your x. She's not here. You are. Do you want us to slag her off? Would that give you the comfort you're looking for? "

"I will admit that during the pregnancy I became atrocious at communication. To the point that even when my ex was experiencing crisis I was not someone she felt she could turn to for support. That's on me, and I know if I had approached things differently a great deal of hardship on her part could have been avoided. I feel terrible about that, I will apologise to her for it, when the opportunity presents itself to do so genuinely I will."

So, you acknowledge you treated her cruelly and that is a good step. But you can't force her to see you as a changed man. What evidence has she that you have changed? It would be a huge leap of faith for her to take, and she has a tiny baby to prioritise over your feelings.



"As to mediation I only want to use it at this stage to create a legal agreement between her and I to ensure that I get to see him at least once a week (although ideally I would love to see him as often as she will allow). I'm also not talking about taking him away from anywhere, I am happy to visist him at her place when convieniant."

You can't view mediation as a means to getting specific objectives that you've already decided on your own head. I really think you should, if you go to mediation, focus on listening first. I think it goes something like, listen, listen, mediator led compromise.

[GinAndT0nic]

You aren't listening newdad. I think you've had an easy ride here. You seem to brush off anything that might be hard to process with a trite disclaimer such as "I'm new here, I don't know the etiquette, this site is for women". so, your starting position here is that we can't possibly.... what? help? get it? understand?

do you need us to understand? The thing we can help you with though, if you can slow down your own internal dialogue is how to have a better relationship with your son's mother in order to have a better relationship with your son.

You have to understand that your mistakes, her mistakes, your opinion of her, her opinion of you, all of this needs to be urgently compartmentalised , and dealt with on you own. You on your own have accept what happened.

Your sense of righteousness, entitlement, injustice [insert as applicable/delete as applicable] is no longer her problem. As I said before and I'm going to bold it now in the hope that it penetrates this time your x is not obliged to buy your interpretation of what went wrong in the relationship just as you don't have to concern yourself with her interpretation. Both of you will have lived and learnt and you should leave it there.

We can't make your girlfriend see your side. And I feel that really that is what you want from us. If you care enough about the relationship with your son, you will be mature enough to deal with the breakdown of the relationship on your own and you will respect her, and respect her wishes. Questioning her morality in a sexual sense is neither respectful nor your business after you finished with her.

[SolidGoldBrass]

Just back the fuck off and do what she tells you. You are coming across as incredibly self-righteous and self-obsessed, it's all about you and what you want. If you keep pestering and badgering and laying down the law to her, she would be well advised to get a non-molestation order out against you, which will not bode well for a good future co-parent relationship.

[Letsmakecookies]

As I keep saying to my children, saying sorry doesn't mean very much and doesn't change what you did, it is just words without meaning. What you can do is change now. Mediation doesn't create legal agreements (afaik). And I think if you behaved as callously as you allude to, you have to understand she might not want you in her house. Dumping her because you knocked her up and then abandoning her to deal with crises and a great deal of hardship.

No one is saying she is a saint beyond reproach, but she is not an incubator and you need to give her time and space while baby is so young. Without that you will create more damage and hurt to your "relationship". You do come across as saintly and unable to listen to what people are repeatedly saying tbh. Now is not the time for mediation and lawyers, maybe in a year plus if nothing changes. Try being a nice guy first and putting your child's and his mother's (therefore child's food, home, safety etc) needs first.

[zookeeper]

yes. Screamingly manipulative.

[Piecesofmyheart]

'I would love to go into more detail here, but I do not know if my ex is a member here at all.'

How predictable. Manipulative. Obvious from your OP but I gave you the benefit of the doubt.
There is nothing that any of us can say that will have an impact on your attitude and behaviour. I suggest F4J.

[zookeeper]

I think we might be starting to see the real you Newdad

[NewDadTrying]

Ok Zookeeper I don't know precisely what her story of the last several months have been, it's none of my buisness, and she went through a phase of phoning me up to tell me who she was sleeping with, or planning to sleep with. When that didn't get a rise out of me she stopped, and to be honest it's quite clear I came to the wrong place.

I'm sorry I tested your "patience". I did my best to put across what I am going through concisely, and got some good food for thought from some people, for which I am very grateful. I won't be bothering you again.

[babyhammock]

Sorry but you sound totally self absorbed.
And seriously on her 4th or 5th relationship with a three month old baby
You've been nothing but disparaging about her even to the point of saying in an earlier post that you'd be happy to take the baby if she got fed up with it which you implied was not that unlikely.
That's an awful thing to say and utterly ridiculous especially as she has another very loved child.
Also all this grizzling about her lying about the contraception and how angry you still are about it, well if you are as 'taken' with the baby as you say you are then surely his existence wouldn't have been if not for that?

Sorry if I'm coming across as harsh well not that sorry

[NewDadTrying]

I would love to go into more detail here, but I do not know if my ex is a member here at all. I am also concerned that baring my soul here flaws and all will get me digitally eviscerated, as I'm not lying about my ex's behaviour, and you can all take it as read that my own shortcomings are many and varied.

However the balance of some opinions seems to be that because she is a mother her actions are almost by default beyond reproach, or must be forgiven, moved beyond etc etc (which again for the record is a place I am really trying reach emotionally within myself so that it doesn't colour anything for our child). Yet any morsel of my own mistakes will be seized upon as validation for earler assumptions. I accept given the purpose of these boards it would be daft in the extreme not to get that reaction from some.

I will admit that during the pregnancy I became atrocious at communication. To the point that even when my ex was experiencing crisis I was not someone she felt she could turn to for support. That's on me, and I know if I had approached things differently a great deal of hardship on her part could have been avoided. I feel terrible about that, I will apologise to her for it, when the opportunity presents itself to do so genuinely I will.

As to mediation I only want to use it at this stage to create a legal agreement between her and I to ensure that I get to see him at least once a week (although ideally I would love to see him as often as she will allow). I'm also not talking about taking him away from anywhere, I am happy to visist him at her place when convieniant.

I have offered to bring round anything she needs, been where I will say I will be, and made it explicitly clear I am happy to be flexible to her schedule, and that even if she ends up not feeling comfortable with a visit to just let me know if it becomes inconveniant. I've weathered her scathing remarks and criticisms without complaint, because I have been able to see my son. When I hold him or change him, or comfort him when he cries, all of that negative stuff just ebbs away and becomes like almost nothing. However I am just finding all this particularly difficult at the moment, as without him I just feel like a tiny boat on a massive ocean, and just wish the waves would just swallow me up and take all this away.

[zookeeper]

I lost patience with you on the "fourth or fifth" line. I bet you know exactly how many relationships she has had . You sound very controlling to me.

Your child is very young; you need to back off and be much more patient for now

[Piecesofmyheart]

'I will take on board what has been said, I have absolutely no objection to owning my mistakes (of which there are many)'

Come on then OP. What exactly ARE these mistakes ?

[GinAndT0nic]

ps, re your last paragraph, what is it you want her to meet you half way with? apportioning the blame as you see fit? I understand that there are things you find hard to accept and things that don't seem fair, but you have to digest those on your own and not thrash them out. My advice is to wait and after a certain period of time has passed you will no longer care that I can promise you, it's like the one guarantee I can give you.

But in the meantime you have to allow her to have her opinion of you, just as you clearly have strong views on her. She is not obligated to view you and the relationship in the same way that you view yourself and the relationship so any attempt to get on the same page there is utterly futile, and I'm telling you this as somebody who tried to get her x to acknowledge that he was wrong to verbally/emotionally and financially abuse me. So don't waste your time trying to divvy out the blame. That won't achieve anything.

Once again, like a broken record I'm telling you to look in to the mirror and remind yourself that the route to a better relationship with your son is through a good, peaceful, respectful relationship with his mother. If you prioritise above that, getting your x to 'buy' your interpretation of what went wrong and why, then that will be bully for you but it will be at the expense of your relationship with your son.

[GinAndT0nic]

Is she really on her fourh or fifth relationship since you 'dated'. Was it a bit more serious than just dating? or, if she heard you say that the two of you dated, would she feel that you were minimising the importance of the relationship at the time, and de-valuing her to somebody you merely dated.

Also, if she has had four or five relationships whilst pregnant and breastfeeding, she is superhuman. Are you certain of this? or are these men friends of her brothers, husbands of her friends? It's a common tactic, painting the x as promiscuous, and your solicitor when you speak to him/her again will caution you against that as it is a very old chesnut.

Once again, your post is words, words, words, words. Dealing with you would exhaust me. You think if you just phrase it differently this time we will suddenly 'get' it properly, see it clearly, sympathise more...

Maybe she would be better off formalising everything through the courts? Access and maintenance. Yes, I think that if I were in her shoes I would hand it over to a judge to avoid getting into long, long, long conversations over it all.