WWYD? Back to the UK from HK after over a decade? Or is there another way?

[QueenOfTheKong]

Hi - need some clarity and so throwing this out to the universe!

I've been living in various locations across Asia for over a decade with my DH and two DDs (both born Hong Kong). We are very much localised, no expat packages, and have considered HK to be our home for years now. DDs (4.5 and 9) in particular are very attached to their home and would be sad to leave.

We found out last week that DH is being made redundant this summer, and due to the current situation, are struggling to see any other option but to move back to the UK, which is something I'm uneasy about, despite having wanted to return in the past.

We've looked at him getting another job in HK (I own a small biz but this has tanked since Corona), but there's very little in his field plus we fear the 12+ months of unrest here is going to seriously flare again as soon as all restrictions are lifted (this is already beginning).

We also looked at a move to Singapore, to maintain some degree of consistency in our lives by staying in Asia but it's looking increasingly unlikely that we'd get visas for the foreseeable and cost of living is also very high.

We have a small amount of savings that would tide us over for a few months if we were to stay in HK, but the hideous expense of rent here would eat through these at around twice the speed of the UK. I'm also conscious that both the UK and HK are heading into major recessions, so job hunting for both of us will be very challenging in either location.

DH has previously stated he would never return to the UK due to Brexit, however has now changed his mind as he can't see any other alternative, and is being quite positive about the lifestyle change. Conversely, I have previously suggested moving back for the benefit of larger home, stability, proximity to aging parents, etc, but am now the one wavering!

So please, WWYD? Return to Corona/Brexit-stricken Britain at what is probably the worst possible time, where we could afford a nice house with a garden but know no one apart from family and would have to adjust, or try to stay on in our adopted city and see if we can ride it out for a few months on savings until there are more jobs available?

Would really love some perspectives as I feel totally lost and going around in circles. Thank you and apologies for the length!

[QueenOfTheKong]

Don't really want to get into a whole Brexit debate here, but essentially we feel that the UK isn't as we left it, that there has been a narrowing of worldviews and that racism and xenophobia are far more prevelant, or at least now more tolerated, which is very disturbing. Also the huge economic implications of Brexit, lack of jobs stemming from specific industries that are relocating out of the UK to other euro countries, although I guess this is now somewhat mitigated by the fact that most of the rest of the world is also headed into a steep recession.

[QueenOfTheKong]

@Mummyoflittledragon lots of conflicting thoughts on that topic, and I'm sure I'd have felt differently pre-kids! But obviously my daughters' welfare is always the primary concern. They've had to give up a lot of freedom and deal with a lot of disruption over the last 12 months, so we want to make sure we get it right for them.

[cupoftea84]

OP I'm very very anti brexit but frankly day to day isn't going to change. I think you're putting far too much weight on it.
HK on the other hand has riots and is being taken over by a communist country that will beat it into submission.
I know where I'd rather live, especially with children.
As others have said pick where you move to carefully and come home with an open mind. Remember only 51% voted for brexit there's still loads of lovely people in the UK.

[Mummyoflittledragon]

Exactly. I took tons of risks pre dd. Honestly it isn’t that bad coming back. Your dds are relatively young. They will adjust. You can keep the language skills going for them locally. It will be easier to be in the british education system pre secondary.

[YootInit]

As someone who is also an expat...

Right now, you are having to get through a crisis (loss of his job and your business, worldwide depression and a pandemic). This crisis is likely to last for long enough to eat through your savings. And in a crisis, you need to find security.

So, I would head back to the UK. You know that (after a qualifying period) there is a safety net that you can access. You have family to rely on. I would not want to be there either, given a choice - not least because the UK is heading into the worst coronavirus outbreak in Europe and the government is a charming combination of heartless and inept - but your choices are limited.

You can, from your homebase, look for other opportunities abroad, or stay a while if opportunities present themselves.

[QueenOfTheKong]

@cupoftea84 absolutely agree, and we're fortunate to have found a great area to move to. I love our visits back and am certainly not meaning to suggest that everyone in Britain is a racist, so I'm sorry if my post came across that way.

Of course I really do hope that all the various negative predictions around the economic impact of Brexit are incorrect, but unfortunately it is something we have to consider when looking at a move, as we'll need brand new jobs. That said, as I mentioned above it's certainly not our only, or even our main concern.

Regarding Hong Kong, the protests certainly are a big concern. Living in a country where the police have quickly moved to act like thugs against its own people (who really aren't casual rioters, but are fighting for the very existence of their country) is extremely upsetting, although as foreigners we're not directly at risk. It's trickier when considering the kids than for us as this is the only home they've known and they feel as strongly about it as anyone would to their home country.

[QueenOfTheKong]

@Mummyoflittledragon a very good point about moving pre-secondary. I want to make it as soft a landing as possible for them.

@YootInit all good points. I suspect that once we're back we'll stay back, and although the current government is extremely unappealing (in HK too!) there are so many other positives that come from being closer to family.

[MrsRudderless]

We don't speak the languages either. Learning though.

You don't necessarily need to to get work in EU.

Big international presence especially in Lux.

No harm in looking?

[Madcats]

I have lots of family in Oz. Chatting to them, I get the impression that travelling to/from Oz from anywhere other than NZ will be v difficult for the foreseeable future.

In the run up to HK being handed back to China, loads of my friends families moved to Vancouver.

Back to the UK (and it really does sound like the most sensible place for you to be i(assuming there are flights). I would choose a Uni town/city. Our Uni has become popular with Asian students (as have many) and there seem to be many more Asian families living here too (Japanese/Korean not sure where Chinese hail from). Some have English spouses, some work at the Uni, most just seem to have chosen the city for its good schools or work.

Rent first, then you can easily move again if it is a big mistake.

I don't envy your position, but I do think this wretched lockdown has fostered a greater sense of community and willingness to help.

[QueenOfTheKong]

@MrsRudderless that's interesting! Will certainly investigate as it can't hurt to have a few more options, thanks!

@Madcats yes, big it's a Uni city and very multicultural. We do like it there a lot but it's a big change. Would definitely rent for a while before buying, especially as we don't have school places sorted yet. Also agree about the sense of community - it's been lovely to see how people have pulled together in such a horrible situation.

[TW2013]

I think that the narrowing of views is fairly area specific. Remain areas still feel very, if not more, open than before. It really depends where you plan to move to.

For secondary school transition it depends when your eldest was born. If they were born in or before August 2010 then applications need to be in by end of Oct 2020, you need to be living in the house you are applying from. If in an 11 plus area you need to apply some point soon for the exam and sit it in September. If your dc was born from Sept 2010 onwards then you have another year. The LEA does have to find you a school place but they don't need to be in the same school so you may decide to HE one of them. The final year of primary is dominated by SATs, but having said that might be a good point to make sure they are used to the UK system before starting secondary.

[Wallywobbles]

Have you thought about somewhere like Brussels or Switzerland ? Personally I've lived the last 25 years in France. And the UK has changed a lot.

[Milicentbystander72]

Hi OP. I understand the wobbles.

My sister lived in Asia for nearly 20 years and returned to the UK 18 months ago. She's never regretted it for a second. She's had to get used to small random everyday British things (like different recycling bin colours!) l....and trying to get hold of a tradesman to do a small job - but on the whole she says she's loving it.

She has 3 girls. They were older though. 2 in Uni and one in Secondary. The uni girls found it weird at first getting used to the Brit ways but have now settled incredibly well and are finding career opportunities everywhere. For the eldest she's already been head hunted by a few people in the Civil Service and some British Space Programmes are very interested in her. This is mainly because she's fab, but importantly speaks fluent Mandarin!

Anyway, I'm off topic now.

My Dsis and my parents have both lived all over the world. They both feel that Britain is still one of the most tolerant and open nations out there. Yes we have problems with politics, but day to day I feel people are friendly and tolerant. I voted to Remain in the Brexit Ref. I'm not planning on leaving anytime soon.

[drspouse]

There are UK schools that teach Mandarin, including state primary, though I'm not sure about Cantonese.
We are a fairly international family though the DCs have always lived here.
We have felt despair about Brexit but TBH the feeling on the ground is more about economics than xenophobia.
CV is going to have such a hugely overwhelming effect everywhere - unlikely to be worse here than HK I'd say.

[TheoneandObi]

Whilst a 9yo will find it harder I honestly wouldn't factor the childrens' thoughts too much. What's most important is their parents' stability and happiness. If those are ok the rest tends to follow. We moved ours at 2, then 3 and 5, then 8 and 10 across continents and country. And the moves were all fine.

[TKAAHUARTG]

How much over a decade have you been gone? I don’t actually think a decade is such a long time that things have changed that much (I left the UK 20 years ago and don’t think it is that different.) Your kids are also very young and very very adaptable.

[customerisqueen]

We moved back after 20 years in Asia - mostly in HK. DS was 9 so similar age to yours. We loved life in HK - it was our home. We moved back for a job opportunity.

Given current situation globally and the v high cost of living in HK, I'd probably say move back to UK. Unless your expenses v low in HK, rent burns through cash v quickly. And you will find it harder to build up savings in UK given tax. However if you can ride it out for a longer time, then you could see how things go. Are you Permanent Residents?

Returning to UK is hard. We still find the winters and weather generally hard going. We have never really got together the kind of support network others have - don't live near family and takes time to build up the network of babysitting circles, play dates etc etc. Others have been doing that since baby groups. We had domestic help in HK and much as we didn't find it hard exactly doing all the housework, shopping, cooking etc it does take a lot more time to do it! Life in UK is much less spontaneous and social as a result. We both had professional full time careers in HK and on return we've not managed to recreate that and one of us has had a more flexible job to work around school times and holidays. It's possible to do but it's much harder than in HK unless you have family close by.

That said, DS settled quickly and we've embraced living here. Love the changing in seasons, country walks, family in same country, Discovering Europe.

[marlboroughlemon]

Everyone’s giving you really great advice but from your OP not sure you have such luxury of choice. Think that your DH needs to be applying now for jobs in all those places (HK, Sing, UK, Lux, Neth, Zurich, Oz) and see where he gets a job offer.

[QueenKong101]

Thanks all - some excellent advice here. Fortunately we are PR so haven't the visa issues, but all really very helpful in clarifying the situation.

[overandunder9]

Which part of HK are you currently living in? Able to move to a cheaper area further out?

[feesh]

Just be aware of your tax liabilities if you move back to the U.K. mid tax year. I know someone who went travelling for 9 months before moving back because it was cheaper than paying all the tax

[ShanghaiDiva]

We are in a similar situation and moving back to the uk after 25 years overseas, last 12 in mainland China.
Dd will be sad to leave her school, but can keep in touch with friends using wechat. She has always attended an international school So is used to friends moving on and now it’s her turn. It was not the smooth exit we planned and the moving process is going to be stressful (hardly any flights out of China) but it’s less stressful than being in different countries (ds is at university in uk) and dealing with travel restrictions, lockdowns etc.

[TheTeenageYears]

@feesh unless things have changed there are no UK tax liabilities on foreign earned income provided you are resident outside the UK for at least one complete tax year. If you leave the UK on the 8th April you would need to be away for almost two years whereas if you leave on the 1st April it's only just over a year.

There is definitely an optimum time to leave and return as tax allowances are given each year regardless of how long you work in that tax year so if you leave the UK in September for example your personal allowance of 12.5k is allowed in full meaning most people would get a large tax rebate after they leave. Equally if you arrive back in the UK at Christmas and work Jan, Feb and Mar you have the whole 12.5k personal allowance so will pay little or no tax in that time.

[Gfplux]

I assume everyone has British Passports.
I am also assuming your apartment rental contract can be cancelled with 30 day notice.

As you mention to move elsewhere in Asia will require visas and those may only be available if you have a written job offer.

I would return to the UK immediately after redundancy. Reduce cash burn as much as possible.
After that everything is possible, even a return to Asia in due course.

[tentative3]

I grew up in HK, moved to the UK when I was 13 and my brother 15. Both born and raised there although different to your girls in that we are not Cantonese speaking (to my huge regret). Obviously we were older and life was different since we're talking 20+ years ago but we adapted and managed. My brother was happier at school in HK, he struggled to find his group here for a while. I coped fine but funnily enough have been the one to miss HK hugely ever since, and have been back on a number of occasions.

Yours kids will adapt, but God, whatever you do keep up their Cantonese. That will give them options of their own in the future.

More broadly speaking, I think in the circumstances I would come back to the UK and regroup for a while. None of us really know how the world will look in a couple of years and you may have options then that you can't even imagine now. The UK is a difficult place to be politically right now, and culturally/socially I am uncomfortable here (have also lived overseas as an adult) but it is likely to be easier to ride things out here than in HK given the unrest there.