How do you maintain your DC(s) written and spoken english if they go to a native school?

[SquidgyMummy]

We are in France, 3.5 yo DS is in the first year of maternelle (pre-school).
he doesn't speak much french (although he was born here in France.) DP and I are both British so outside school DS is in an anglophone environment.

I am not too worried about him picking up French, as he will go at his own pace through school.

However, we met some friends yesterday and their daughter has been the french system since Grande section (age 5) and she cannot read or write in english, (she writes english phonetically as a french person would.)

I read to DS in english and I know he is too young to be reading (and writing) just yet, however, in order to be prepared so that his written English doesn't suffer and of course in later years has the option to study in Anglophone countries should he want to.)

I am probably over thinking it at this early stage, but what should I be introducing DS to at the moment in terms of English early years schooling? TIA!

[alteredimages]

So glad I found this thread! We have almost the same situation here squidgy. I have a 3.5 yr old DD in PS. She is now speaking quite a lot of French but had none except the colours and a couple of songs at the beginning of the year. We are moving back to Egypt next month and have applied to French schools, partly for the sake of continuity because she seems happy and partly because British schools are of variable quality and prohibitively expensive. Sadly there are no good Arabic language international schools. I too would love to hear all your tips for getting her reading and writing English. At the moment we are just reading lots of books but am undecided whether to start phonics with her next year or not. At some point she will also need to learn to read and write in Arabic. I can see arguments on both sides of the sequential vs concurrent debate but the general standard of English amongst French native speakers doesn't inspire confidence, and I am sure it is the same the other way around.

Maybe we can be phonics buddies next year squidgy? How is your DS enjoying maternelle?

[cannotseeanend]

I have a child sitting GCSEs but going to school in another language. Predicted As to A*s. Bright child but not convinced would have done better if had gone to school in English. It's made easier by the child's own preference for reading in English and been given lots of practice in writing English over the last few months whilst preparing for GCSEs. That would have been made much much harder without a natual love for reading. I haven't had to do any interventions at all. Production of writing is highly prized here, so is being able to use commas and full stops, so it's all transferred into English, though if it had been German to English, as their commas go in slightly different places, that might have take a bit of practice!

[FloppyRagdoll]

We moved to Germany in 1993 when DS was 3; DD1 was 11 months old; DD2 was born here.

We originally expected to stay for two years. Although the contract was extended, there was still a likelihood that we would move back to the UK. Our worst case scenario was that DS would be the age for Y3 in Scotland, but not yet have started school in Germany. I acquired syllabus materials and BBC early learning materials, and we played "school" in the afternoons when kindergarten was finished. DS was reading and writing in English before he began school in Germany, as were his sisters.

Even although by the time DD1 began school, it was clear we were here for the long haul, we kept up with our home-based "English school" for all the children until they went to secondary school. Right through school, we encouraged lots of reading and lots of writing in English. Grandparents and other friends and family helped by sending letters and, as the technology developed, e-mails. All three children are comfortable with both languages. (Or all three languages, if you count Bavarian.)

DS decided that he wanted to study in the UK - he now has a first class honours degree from a Russell Group university. DD1 is studying here in Germany and has a student job translating websites into English for the student services department of her German University. DD2 is training to be a nurse here. She has undertaken work experience in Germany, Hungary, Scotland and Ireland and has drawn up a list of countries where she would like to work when she is qualified.

It was something of a slog at the time, helping the children to keep up with English; but I am glad that we made the effort. The children seem happy about it, too.

[MrTumblesBavarianFanbase]

Sorry, not been on MN on the laptop for the last few days - DD's blog (she started it when she was 7, took a long break, wrote a few more at 8 - she's just turned 8.5). She likes to use my laptop, and is only allowed to to write stories :) She does write stories on paper too (usually in bed...) but those don't make the blog. annaskidsstories.blogspot.de/

[NaturalBaby]

I've been told about the lack of creative writing teaching here as well so that's something I'm hoping to work on when my kids are old enough.

[LadyInDisguise]

The best is a year in the UK
Actually I agree with that too. Not possible in my case for various reasons but you can organise exchanges etc even for a 2~3weeks at the time with someone back in the uk

Well at least that's my plan to encourage the dcs to read and write in French. (Obviously they would go to France from the uk....)

[NomDeClavier]

I think German secondary English is of a much higher standard than French, which is dire and in a system which does not encourage creative writing. You have to know the tide you're rowing against.

But working through what is expected of English children - Bond books, 7/11/13+ comprehension and past papers, verbal reasoning etc - will give a thorough grounding as long as the parents are involved.

[PortofinoRevisited]

Lillian, indeed! Dd's new love of Newsround and Blue Peter is much celebrated in this house. Bob L'Eponge Carre can die a painful death in the Crusty Crab for all I care

[homeanddry]

Oooh lovely, bonsoir! Soon I hope!

[LillianGish]

One of the great things about being abroad is that watching TV becomes an educational activity and not something to be discouraged or frowned upon!

[SquidgyMummy]

DS watches a lot of ceebeebies and it has really helped his vocabulary. I will start on some phonics over the summer holidays. He has older half siblings in the UK, so I think they will naturally email each other etc, as they get older.
Quite an interesting idea sending him to school for a while in the uk when older. Perhaps a term not a year!!

[Bonsoir]

I'm still waiting for you to come and have a fun day in Paris with me, homeanddry

[homeanddry]

I agree with what Bonsoir said.

It's not easy to develop reading and writing skills in a language not taught at school. I found an native English student to come to the house for weekly reading and creative writing lessons when my older DC were at primary school and it made a huge difference.

However DD1 is a reluctant reader, and her vocabulary, spelling and general syntax in English is markedly weaker than DD2's, who reads a lot and is more creatively minded. If you can manage to encourage a love of reading it will certainly help.

And when they are older, a school with a bilingual class/section is a godsend if there is one near you. They are required to read and write in English at a level way above that taught in mainstream classes.

But IME the fast-track way to better written English is a year in school in the UK

[ernesttheBavarian]

We are British living in Germany. Our dc all go to local school or kindergarten, ages 5 - 14. They are all bilingual they all speak German fluently and English perfectly. We only ever speak English at home, occasional lapses into German if friends are round, but often the friends want to practise their English anyway.

I taught all of my dc to read English before they started school as learning to read in German is easier and also different, and I didn't want them to then later find English too difficult and be put off. It's worked for us

Ds1 and 2 are avid readers, they prefer to read in English. Ds3 is a bit of a reluctant reader but improving.

Their written work is not as good but the English teaching at school is pretty rigorous so have no worries there.


They do know some British kids who either have 1 German parent or they are both British but nevertheless they, for whatever reason speak German at home and you can always tell. Their accent is a bit 'foreign', as is their grammar and their vocabulary much more limited.

So I would encourage the spoken English and a lot of reading. Depending on the quality of the local education, I wouldn't worry too much about the written. I used to be, as their written English was awful, but as they have had more lessons at school and it's pretty high level now, it has improved a lot. In fact, I bet their knowledge of English and grammar is better than that of a kid educated in UK. We also take ours back to UK most school holidays and they watch English TV so they are also reasonably up to date culturally and re vocabulary, as that changes a lot too.
People are surprised that our dc (apart from eldest) have never lived in UK or spent more than a fortnight there.

[MrTumblesBavarianFanbase]

Maybe Bonsiur but as long as she leeps reading in English I don't think there is any reason for limited and childish expression. DH is German, lived in Germany and was educated in German until the end of university, and HE also has better written English and a more extensive vocabulary than the average Brit ;)

Bertie hopefully he will, I know another 5 year old reads them. Get him to leave a comment :)

[Bonsoir]

At eight the difference is often less marked - try 18 when DC have been spending all their time working in the language of the country.

[BertieBotts]

We're in Germany so DS won't start school until almost 7. He's 5.5 now and I'm working through the phonics stages with him for reading, using an Andrew Brodie book to tell me what to do and Songbirds books for him to progress through. He loves them so thumbs up there. I have to say they seem more interesting than Chip and Kipper. I find myself getting quite involved with the recurring characters You could probably get the Andrew Brodie book and do some of the pre-phonics exercises which is basically practising differentiating between shapes and also sounds.

Then for writing I was just getting him to write things down that he wanted to, like a birthday card to a friend, a caption on a picture, we write little notes to each other, he types a message to someone on skype, etc, but he kept getting frustrated because he wanted to write more than he was capable of. So instead I got him some Collins Easy Learning workbooks, started with the "Writing" books (which pretty much just cover letter shapes and pen control, we should have done them earlier, you could probably start those at 3 or 4) and moving on to the "English" books which start off with vvv simple spelling like finding the missing sound of c_t.

MrTumbles that sounds good! Do you think DS might like to read the stories? I've just bought him some books in German so it would be nice to have a source of something written by someone not too much older than him.

[MrTumblesBavarianFanbase]

My written English on a smartphone whilst in the playground keeping one eye on a nearly 3 year old leaves a lot to be desired though! Sorry about the typos and odd word merging!

[MrTumblesBavarianFanbase]

Bonsoir I think my 8 year old's written English is better than a lot of her peers in the UK - its not remarkable or amazing, but it is above average for 8. I was an English teacher in the UK. I'll post a link to her blog (where she writes stories in Englaterand German when the moid takes her) when I'm on the laptop later.

[Bonsoir]

I don't think classes are remotely necessary! In the end in both France and Germany I think English classes at secondary will iron out the spelling.

I cannot agree with this - I see the written English of DC from English-speaking homes who have never had proper English classes for native speakers every year and I have never encountered a single one who writes as well as they should. Their expression is always limited and childish.

[MrTumblesBavarianFanbase]

We moved to Germany when my eldest was 1.5 - she has only ever been to all German Kindergarten (from age 3) and is now in Year 3 at a local all German school, no other English speakers locally (as in we have to drive to visit other English speakers and don't do it often).

We speak English at home and all 3 kids sound exactly like native English speakers, I'd challenge anyone to pick the "German" kids from any group of "English" kids. DD gets good drages in German and writes stories in both English and German at home and reads novels at about her appropriate reading age in English and a bit above in German - she will read in either language, whichever she can get her hands on the book she wants in. Her class started learning English this year (songs, colours, introducing themselves type stuff) - this is dull for her, but sometimes her teacher lets her help teach the class, and sometimes she is allowed to read in English in the corner.

DD's spelling in English IS a bit German - but she writes "high frequency" non phonetic words correctly (she can spell things like "light" and "the" etc.) due to lots of reading - but she sometimes uses sch instead of ch and k instead of c if she is not concentrating and just writing a story - if she proof reads her work for spellings she can self correct at least 50% of those types of mistakes.


I read to the kids in English (even the oldest despite her being able to read perfectly well) 5 nights a week, a book/ chapter of a book each (which now takes a while as there are 3 of them) which I think is invaluable for passive vocabulary and pronunciation of less frequently heard words.

DD did ask to learn to read before she started school here so we did do a bit in English when she was 4 or so, just when she felt like it - we did some Jolly Phonics together. DS1 is 6 now but still at KiGa and only just interested in reading for himself - he is less interested in doing the Jolly Phonics books, though we do work on them together occassionally, but when he wants to he uses //www.readingeggs.com - often he'll have a phase of being interested for a week and doing lots, then no interest at all for a few weeks, when he'd rather play football all day - fine with me. Like DD at 4-5, DS1 at 6 has got to grips with basic English phonics and can blend and read by "sounding out". DD started school at nearly 6, DS1 will be nearly 7 - looks as though they will be at similar levels on starting and it seems to have worked well for DD, hopefully will for DS1 too...

I don't think classes are remotely necessary! In the end in both France and Germany I think English classes at secondary will iron out the spelling, whilst minority language at home should keep the spoken English up to scratch - we also have cbeebies ;)

[vikinglights]

I've made sure they have plenty of access to english language tv/dvd/computer games/books/magazines/Comics/early readers/games just to keep language exposure up. Their bedtime story is in english at least every other night for example.

On top of that I've made an effort to do some basic phonics type stuff, firstly listening to the different sounds in words, finding words with certain sounds and then linking that to letters/ letter combinations. I've followed their lead to a large degree (although I certainly haven't held back about suggesting phonics/readling type activities to them...)

DD1 is 8 and in third grade in the local school, she reads and writes fluently in the local language and reads english fluently but doesn't write much in english. She prefers to fall back to using the phonics of the local language to spell. School english lessons are I think more of a hinderance than a help at least for spelling because her weekly english spellings are 'themed' rather than having any common phonics/spelling patterns and are learned 'whole word style'. We'll probably do some work on english phonics again over the summer without the complication of school....

DD2 is 6 and in kindergarten. She is reading pretty well in english tackling early reader type books and oxford reading tree level 6 (I' don't have any higher levels) and also reading early readers in the local language (which is very phonetically regular). She's had more exposure to phonics in english although her spoken local laguage is the stronger, so when she writes she tends to write the local language with a good dollop of english phonics!

DS is 3, and has suddenly developed an interest in letters, and a current favourite DVD is a BBC letters and sounds one.

I think some grounding in english phonics has helped make written english more accessible to them but probably the biggest driver is having lots of english stuff (books/magazines/comics/games) that they want to read

[schokolade]

Oh and I just remembered Mum had a friend who used to write us short English letters every now and then with, say, 10 mistakes in (grammar, spelling, etc) that we had to find, correct and send back for a prize. That was fun!

[schokolade]

Not my DC, but I used to go to a native school and my mum taught me to read and write in English at home. Some things she did that might be useful (ages 5-10 ish):

• wrote weekly letters (emails/gmail chat these days!) to grandparents/aunties/friends, who also wrote back
  
• when older we had spellings every week, with a test set by mum. sometimes we also wrote a story for her. we did this grudgingly but it certainly helped.
  
• played lots and lots of hangman. i bloody hate hangman now.
  
• played spelling games in the car on journeys. we also played a lot of I spy, with mum focussing on really remote objects that we might not have come across the English word for otherwise.
  
• mum got us a boggle game for christmas one year and we played that a lot. and scrabble.

[RazaMeTimbers]

I taught each of mine to read over the summer before they went into CP. We used a book called 'teaching your child to read in 100 easy lessons.' We spent about 20 mins a day and the kids loved it. They could read pretty well by the end of the summer.

I gave it a break in September and didn't pick up again until the following summer (all of them could read in French by about December of CP). Not sure we ever completed the book but they had the basics.

I did read books in English with them for a good few years. They're all capable but they find it easier and more enjoyable* to read in French (sob!) They're 13, 11 and 9 now.

• in reality they prefer tablet/computer to books no matter what the language