Party-wall

[cherryblossoms]

Hello people.

Our new neighbours (who have not yet moved in!) 'phoned on Friday to arrange a meeting (this Saturday), to which they arrived with plans and a party wall agreement document.

They want to build an extension ACROSS the party wall divide, extending at least 6" into our garden.

They were very disappointed we wouldn't sign there and then. They want to be finished by Christmas. They want to start work this week. In fact, they've started - though not actually digging foundations or anything yet.

They have told us it will INCREASE the value of our home and that they are doing us a favour.

People - what should we do? What's the done thing in a situation like this? Are they correct in saying that it will increase the value of our property?

Dh is inclined to agree. I think this is quite possibly not true. Who is right?

[Merrylegs]

WTF??

Does your DH have MUG written across his forehead?

Is he quite the ticket?

This 'builder' is 'aving a laugh. "Don't mind then next door. I spun them a yarn about not needing planning permission and blimey, they bloody fell for it. Honestly, they are this close to agreeing to us building part of our house in their garden! There's one born every minute, eh Kev?"

[cherryblossoms]

Thank you itsjusta - the issue of indemnity had not even crossed my mind.

Can I add just one more rant ...

Mr Builder didn't mention ANYTHING about coming into our garden to build - which I knew they would have to do - just kept reassuring us that we wouldn't even know they were there.

Finally, I mentioned the garden. And then and only then, he offered to move plants out of the way!

Erm, scaffolding? Or are you going to levitate when doing the pointing? (or whatever it is they call it!)

[Ghanamafia]

We have recently completed an extension in which we built right up to (but not over) the boundary, replacing the previous boundary wall with a new one. We had to have agreement BEFORE we started any work. The provisions of the Party Wall Act are very clear about that.

Why, then, are you being pressured into agreeing without any of the time limits and other provisions of the Act being observed? Is it so you won't really have a chance to examine what is being proposed?

It is really important to know EXACTLY what the building work involves, including agreeing access to your land if any. Where will the building go?. Where are the pipes etc? In our case,there was a real problem with a partly buried gas pipe which the (joint) party wall surveyor was very useful in sorting out. You can't leave decisions like that to the neighbour to sort out alone, because the most convenient solution for them could be disastrous for you.

Everything, including access times, moving garden plants and replacing them etc, should be agreed in writing beforehand.

I don't think there is any benefit to you in allowing any building that encroaches on your land-it sounds as though they are trying to cadge a bit of your property without paying for it. The plans and so on should never have been drawn up on that basis without having given you a proper chance to look at them and agree, and without offering compensation.

I would be very cautious. If you are being rather fobbed off even at this stage, you can't have any confidence that the project will be properly handled. What if, in the end, they take up far more of your property than 6", for example?

My advice: ask your neighbours for a copy of the plans and a letter from their surveyor/builder/whatever setting out what they want to do and why. Since they're so keen, they should be able to get you that in the next couple of days. Also, get on to the council urgently and make sure the planning or building control officer comes to your house to view the plans in your garden so s/he can properly assess what is being proposed. It might not need planning permission (because it is a 'permitted development') but don't take the neighbours' word for that. You will also need a party wall surveyor urgently (I wouldn't use theirs, since they seem to be being a bit cavalier)and once you have one all correspondence is better done surveyor to surveyor.

There is no reason you shouldn't ultimately be able to agree something with them, but your house is your major asset, so don't be browbeaten into doing something against your interests.

[ProcessYellowC]

I have experience from agreeing this on the other side, I am a project manager and sometimes have to make arrangements with neigbours to sites I am working on to access their land. If I wanted to actually build on their land I would have to ask them very nicely if I could buy it and we would have to go through a land sale process!

If they modify their plans so that the wall does not encroach on your land, they will still probably have to scaffold in your garden. It is pretty standard practice to ask for some money to let them scaffold there; I typically pay out around £2-5,000 depending on length of time/size of garden affected.

If they are excavating, which they most likely will be to dig foundations, you will be entitled to appoint a party wall surveyor, who can send all their invoices to them. find one at www.ricsfirms.com

Insist on a full photographic survey of your garden and get them to sign up to it being rectified as it was prior to the scaffolding

[maxmissie]

I work as a planning officer for a council and have never seen any plans showing extensions being built into neighbours' gardens. Along the boundary line or attached to the side of the neighbouring house but never onto a neighbour's land. This sounds very odd!

I don't know about the party wall act but I would get onto the council's planning dept and ask for it to be investigated as to whether or not the extension needs planning permission or not. if it extends out of your neighbours' garden into yours it might not benefit from permitted development rights (i.e. not needing a planning application) anyway but not 100% certain of this. Tell them that they have told you they want to build into your garden. Also would be a good idea to contact the council's Building Control dept as they will need Building Regulations which I think will need to sorted before they start building. Also there might be some legal issues over who actually owns the bit of extension that is on your land, you might want to get this checked out too.

If my neighbours told me they wanted to build into my garden i would laugh and politely decline! can only think that this will cause problems for you further down the line one way or another.

[cherryblossoms]

Thank you. This is lots of advice and I'm v. grateful. I'm beginning investigating.

I think you're all right - and we need to get a surveyor.

[WhereYouLeftIt]

Best wishes cherryblossoms - but I have to say I think you are about to get the neighbours from hell .

[bodycolder]

Do NOT let them proceed They cannot build on land which is part of the freehold title of your house as when you come to sell the new owners could actually ask them to take it down!You need a surveyor and a solicitor if this is to go ahead.they need full plans and building regs plus a party wall agreement if they want to build.Even so this is not a party wall issue really they want to build ON your land so it is a different matter.They sound dodgy Say no for now and check it with the council.

[jasper]

advice is unanimous.
DO NOT agree to this.
They have a total cheek.

If they want to buy a strip of land from you and you are happy to sell, negotiate the price.

I have experience of this type of neighbour . DO NOT GIVE THEM AN INCH (never mind 6)

[mejon]

A bit at your husband saying you need to be making an effort to get on with your new neighbours. Surely they are the ones who should be making the effort. Trying to do what they're proposing doesn't strike me as being very neighbourly. Cheeky beggars!

[cherryblossoms]

Thank you everyone. I am now going to go and have that chat with dh. In particular, I am going to attempt to persuade him that we should call on a surveyor (many thanks for the link, PYC).

You've given me some great advice - and detail, too; so useful, - along with the sense of a team behind me! Thank you all. Now, some backbone, MsCherry! Forwards!

[ilove]

What have you decided to do?

[SarahBrown]

You need a solicitor and an injunction - and a surveyor. Please also notify the planning dept at your local council, especially as their name has been taken in vain by The Builder. I believe you are entitled to have them assess the plans if you believe they go beyond the scope of the recent relaxation of the planning regs for extensions.

I would also ask a councillor who is on the council's Planning Committee for help - check the website for names.

[bigstripeytiger]

I have no idea why your DH would think this would be a good idea - why would he want to give your neighbours 6 feet of your garden?

It sounds like you need to get in touch with the council and/or independent legal advice ASAP.

[cherryblossoms]

Hello people.

Just thought I'd nip back in and tell you how it's ambling along - I'm always a bit sad when I never hear the "ending" of threads I've posted on.

Well, dh and I are v. slow ... . I think I've talked him into the idea of asking for a party-wall surveyor to talk this over with. Dh was of the opinion that we should try not to do that, and that a party-wall surveyor was only for the situation where they take out some sort of order to gain our acquiescence after an outright refusal. I'm suggesting that it is all just a little beyond our capacities and we should ask for one even if we are inclined to agree. I think I've persuaded him to that view.

It's only 6 inches, not 6 feet. Did I say 6 feet? In that case I was very silly.

The estate agent we spoke to said that they thought it might well lead to problems selling, and might well deter some buyers. Which was a bit unnerving.

The planning office were useless. Mr. Duty Officer told me he was just off to a meeting and gave me two seconds, in the course of which he said that it was legal with our agreement and we could hire a planning surveyor. I knew that already - thanks to you lot. What I needed to know was more whether it was advisable!

So. Not much movement. I guess we go back to the neighbours and ask them how they feel about a party-wall surveyor.

And again, thank you all for your advice. It has been incredibly helpful.

[bigstripeytiger]

You didnt say 6 feet, I just didnt read carefully enough sorry.