Bank staff- legal rights if any?

[ArchesOfLavender]

I’ve worked for nearly three years as bank staff for a council. My contract states I am given individual assignments, there is no continuous employment. I can be sent to places, and take or leave these assignments. The contact is casual/ zero hours.
The reality is a number of places think I am their assigned staff member from the council, for some I have been going multiple times every half term and I agree the dates for the whole year in advance. Others I cover more ad hoc
I have been paid every single month since starting a consistent amount, though I have to process this as a claim sheet.
I have pay slips, full access to systems etc. I function as any staff member would.
Is every claim an individual assignment I am employed for, or after a year does it start to count as continuous service?
The reasons I ask- I like the job, but long term it’s scary doing they could simply cut my email access and never contact me again suddenly if they wanted to for budget reasons or anything else. Maternity, what would happen.
thanks!

[prh47bridge]

I'm afraid you won't get the correct answer here. You need to get a lawyer who specialises in employment law to look at your contract. Depending on what it says, it may give you continuous employment even if that isn't the employer's intention. If it doesn't, any break of one week or more ends your continuous employment unless the break falls into one of the exceptions (e.g. annual leave, sickness, maternity leave).

[ArchesOfLavender]

The Awkward bit is I’ve read the one week rule. I do have gaps of a week between on site work, but 80% of my work is home based and subject to quite flexible long deadlines (like producing a report within a week).
The law seems to focus on roles that are on site, not home working with no set days to complete tasks. It’ll be like go to xxx , xxx and xxx on a busy week, they have a two week window on which to provide reports.
My contract simply doesn’t reflect the reality of the work. In particular it’s about one off assignments, when I actually committ to a whole year of dates in advance for most clients.
Its really not well paid enough for lawyer advice

[DaisyHaites]

Try ACAS, but as PP said probably needs bespoke advice.

[prh47bridge]

If you are working from home on an assignment, you are still working. It doesn't matter that you aren't on site. A one-week gap can only happen if you aren't working at all.

[TizerorFizz]

I think you would be classified as a “worker” but obviously your contract matters but you could clarify the position with your employer. I’ve attached what ACAS say about worker status. However your employer can be more generous. It depends if you are given additional benefits employees enjoy.

[AFmammaG]

Are you paid regularly on their payroll or do you invoice for the work?

[TizerorFizz]

If the op only works for this organisation she is not self employed. She’s probably a “worker” as defined by ACAS. You get a payslip to give details of what you have been paid based on your claims. So not the same as an employee. She said she submitted claims - not invoices. Therefore she’s not self employed.

[ArchesOfLavender]

@AFmammaG

Are you paid regularly on their payroll or do you invoice for the work?

On the payroll, pay slip every month but variable what I claim

[ArchesOfLavender]

@TizerorFizz

I think you would be classified as a “worker” but obviously your contract matters but you could clarify the position with your employer. I’ve attached what ACAS say about worker status. However your employer can be more generous. It depends if you are given additional benefits employees enjoy.

The guaranteed hours are tricky. Contract says it’s one off assignments. If I cancel cover is found without any issues.
Realistically it’s like ‘you are responsible for auditing this place, set 6 meetings with them across the year’ and then this rolls on

[ArchesOfLavender]

@TizerorFizz

If the op only works for this organisation she is not self employed. She’s probably a “worker” as defined by ACAS. You get a payslip to give details of what you have been paid based on your claims. So not the same as an employee. She said she submitted claims - not invoices. Therefore she’s not self employed.

Correct. I claim hours. I write the forms for each client who buys in, send them in and they are sent direct to clients as invoice. They are forwarded to payroll who pay me

[ArchesOfLavender]

I’m not self employed. I pay PAYE, have a payroll number, contract and full access to IT and systems.
The easiest explanation would be I guess to imagine a supply teacher who was kept on the books by a school and used for about 6/7 days a months on a flexible basis as needed, but with some regular days booked in every month.
My pay is part time, around a £1000 average a month, but fluctuates

[TizerorFizz]

@ArchesOfLavender I think the ACAS info is a starting point but then clarify with the organisation. It’s slightly muddy water isn’t it? The fact they raise invoices from your hours is not an arrangement that affects you being a “worker”. It’s just how the finance dept know what to charge. There are quite a few not for profit trading arms at councils now but they should be clear about your employment rights.

[ArchesOfLavender]

@TizerorFizz

@ArchesOfLavender I think the ACAS info is a starting point but then clarify with the organisation. It’s slightly muddy water isn’t it? The fact they raise invoices from your hours is not an arrangement that affects you being a “worker”. It’s just how the finance dept know what to charge. There are quite a few not for profit trading arms at councils now but they should be clear about your employment rights.

Their view is obviously to keep everyone as a casual worker. It’s a garbled contract though, for example it states you must ask your line manager’s permission to work elsewhere. You can’t demand that of a worker. Also the finance dept does assign you to places as if you were full time, you become the named person on the client’s account/ books. It’s not like they send anyone, nor would the role allow that

[TizerorFizz]

@ArchesOfLavender That is not unusual for worker status though. The organisation does need to plan work and know who is doing what. Yes, they can “demand” that of a worker. It’s called flexibility. Look at what ACAS say about a casual relationship. You just need a better explanation of what you are entitled to and what you are not.

[ArchesOfLavender]

@TizerorFizz

@ArchesOfLavender That is not unusual for worker status though. The organisation does need to plan work and know who is doing what. Yes, they can “demand” that of a worker. It’s called flexibility. Look at what ACAS say about a casual relationship. You just need a better explanation of what you are entitled to and what you are not.

I meant the bit about having to get permission to work elsewhere, from my mine manager. That’s not worker status, a worker is free to work elsewhere.

[CasualStaff]

I was literally just going to create a very similar post @ArchesOfLavender.

I am also a casual worker for the council, completing audits. I have 6 to do each month - I can choose when to do them but have to meet timescales for undertaking each one and then for actually completing the reports. Average is 70 hours a month. I’m auditing the same provisions every month and can’t send a substitute. My work is checked over afterwards by a manager so they definitely have control.

I submit my hours each month and am paid PAYE. I am entitled to holidays and am part of the council pension scheme but am not entitled to occupational sick pay.

Rightly or wrongly I feel it’s discriminatory against part time staff as although these audits are an integral and permanent part of the service they have no desire to employ someone on a perm contract.

I also have to declare other employment due to potential conflict of interest.

This link suggests I’m an employee - it’s all a bit of a grey area.

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/check-employment-status-for-tax

[TizerorFizz]

@ArchesOfLavender If you read the ACAS definition it says most things should apply. SmDo they? It doesn’t say you are free to do as you want. If you work for a number of employers on contracts you are self employed. You invoice the company. If you don’t, and work for one company, it’s inevitable there is some sort of direction to meet needs. You don’t have total choice about your work, where you work and when.

I rather do agree that these jobs should be as employees and it’s a cost saving decision but part time employees have to agree where and when and there’s not so much flexibility regarding hours.

[ArchesOfLavender]

My understanding is a zero hours contract/ minimal hours cannot be written to ensure constant availability or exclusivity. Workers cannot be tied to a place that may or may not offer hours. This was after people were forced to clock off for quiet periods on zero hours.
I’d only be self employed if not paid through PAYE, but raising my own invoices.

[ArchesOfLavender]

@CasualStaff

I was literally just going to create a very similar post @ArchesOfLavender.

I am also a casual worker for the council, completing audits. I have 6 to do each month - I can choose when to do them but have to meet timescales for undertaking each one and then for actually completing the reports. Average is 70 hours a month. I’m auditing the same provisions every month and can’t send a substitute. My work is checked over afterwards by a manager so they definitely have control.

I submit my hours each month and am paid PAYE. I am entitled to holidays and am part of the council pension scheme but am not entitled to occupational sick pay.

Rightly or wrongly I feel it’s discriminatory against part time staff as although these audits are an integral and permanent part of the service they have no desire to employ someone on a perm contract.

I also have to declare other employment due to potential conflict of interest.

This link suggests I’m an employee - it’s all a bit of a grey area.

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/check-employment-status-for-tax

This is why I reached out- to hear the experiences of others.
for example I’m wondering about maternity in the future.
I do feel this kind of work isn’t really within the law as it’s written.

[TizerorFizz]

@ArchesOfLavender Why can you not have a second job? What exclusivity do you have in the contract? Your hours do accord with the legal status of worker.

Im not sure why you cannot read the ACAS definition of worker and what benefits of employment you must get and which are optional. Optional means your employer might give these benefits but they don’t legally have to. If your contract is silent on benefits does it refer you to an employment handbook? You won’t be the sole employee with this status so ask HR. No ome here can tell you what benefits your employer will give you as they are all different.

HMRC has also tight rules for self employed. You would need multiple compdniex or organisations using your devices. ACAS clearly says worker status is a more casual relationship but of course your boss can direct when and where you work but you can negotiate. Full employers cannot in the same way. Do you pay pension contributions? How do you agree paid holiday? What about other employee benefits? What handbook are you referred to to know what you get and what you don’t? You need to ask your employer.

[CasualStaff]

@TizerorFizz it’s not as simple as ‘Im not sure why you cannot read the ACAS definition of worker’. It’s all a bit of a grey area. My own contract is garbled and HR just state you are a casual worker and cannot provide any particular policy or handbook.

My manager agrees it’s a cost cutting exercise. It sounds like I do something very similar to the Op.

Mine is highly specialised and requires a professional qualification and registration, there is a process I must follow for each audit and a timescale. It’s not casual as in hospitality or nursing bank staff where you may need to pick up extra shifts. It’s a core function and is required every single month until if and when legislation changes. It’s only casual as in I have flexibility over what days I complete the work each month.

I believe I am a disguised employee. I am missing out on continuous service, yearly increments, training and development opportunities as well as OSH & compassionate leave etc.

Regarding paid holiday - yes I receive this but I still have to ensure the monthly audits are completed - it’s not like I can miss a month. If I was sick they would only obtain cover for me if the work could not be rescheduled within the necessary timeframe.

[TizerorFizz]

The problem is that the definition of worker is clear and distinct from employee. Whether it’s fair or not is another matter. I don’t believe is but it doesn’t change the definition that is now with us. The only way out is to renegotiate your conditions of employment . You know what you get and what you don’t get. You are working on a task and finish arrangement, and I agree it’s not satisfactory. Only you can get it changed though. Do they have plenty of people queuing up to do the work? Could they replace you? If not, ask for a new contract or walk away. If it suits you, you might have to accept worker status.

[JackSpaniels]

I work for 2 councils doing identical work in every way.

For 1 I am PAYE on a day rate (so no expenses or holidays). They say it falls within IR35
For the other I invoice as a contractor on a day rate (£50 less than 1st role). They say it falls outside IR35

Who knows- it isnt simple

[TizerorFizz]

@JackSpaniels So you just have to go with the employers rules because it’s clear “worker” is not 100% defined. You might get differing contracts but none appears to be illeagal.

[JackSpaniels]

@TizerorFizz

@JackSpaniels So you just have to go with the employers rules because it’s clear “worker” is not 100% defined. You might get differing contracts but none appears to be illeagal.

I know
I have had a full HMRC IR35 investigation as a test case- whoopee.
They decided that I worked outside of IR35 but each council seem to run their own checks and reach differing outcomes
I have the letter frame don the office wall- how MMRC can to waste thousands of pounds and cause over a year of stress!