Eviction for 15-Month-Old Playing.... Is It Legal?

[maity101]

Hello,

I've come to this forum, because I'm exhausted being fobbed off by all of the free government advice services who clearly either don't have enough expertise to answer my questions or judge me the moment I say the word "eviction." The background is quite extensive, and I don't want to bore you, so I'll be as brief as I can... feel free to ask for more details, however.

My husband and I rent through a letting agent. We have been served with a 2 month notice that the owner requires possession of the flat. Initially, we thought that the owner must either want to sell the place or live in it. Within a week, after speaking to the letting agent, we were informed that the owner just wants us out after receiving a letter of complaint written by the managers of the building (who are a registered as a limited company). This letter detailed a myriad of both utterly false and grossly exaggerated complaints against us that originated from the flat directly below us.

It's very important to mention that this person who has complained about us has been harassing us almost since we moved in. His harassment escalated to aggressive and frightening behaviour, and the police became involved. We reported His behaviour to our letting agent, but not to the managers of the building... we don't know whether the owner of the flat was made privy to this information by the letting agent and have no way of contacting her directly.

What our downstairs neighbour complains about varies, but the consistent thing is that he's completely unreasonable, both in the way he talks to us (or shouts) and in his requests. His most recent complaints have been that out son plays on the floor. His complaints to the managers of the building were never addressed to us. When the owner of the flat received this information (without the context of his abusive and agressive behaviour toward us) she decided without evidence (for example, bringing in sound measuring devices from the council) and based on hearsay that we were to be thrown out and new tenants found.

We just cannot believe that this is legal.... to throw a tenant out, because a 15-month-old plays! I am not a lawyer, but I have found in my research that it is a violation of the United Nations Convention on the Rights of Children Article 31, which states, "All children have a right to relax and play."

I have so many questions... first and foremost.... is a private letting agent exempt from follow the proper procedures with regard to noise complaints? Second, is the managing group of this building (who are a registered limited company) responsible to follow a proper procedure when complaints are addressed. (Notifying the people who have been complained about BEFORE the owner of their flat, to give them an opportunity to rectify and/or explain the situation?) Third, are we entitled to see all of the documents and communications between the building managers, complaining tenants, letting agent and owner regarding us and our flat? Last, and most importantly.... is this a a violation of my son's human rights?

Thank you so much for reading this and all of your help!

[Xenia]

We tried much stronger of security of tenure in the UKand rents fixed at very low levels for life in the 1970s in something called the rent acts. The result was that landlords stopped letting and tenants could find nowhere to live at all.

So we changed the system so that landlords can remove tenants.

Countries around the world have different systems but this one is working better in the UK than the previous one although it does mean your landlord is entitled to their property back if they give you notice. If you don 't want to be in that position then try to buy somewhere instead.

[gotthearse]

Whilst i agree that your LL and neighbour are tossers, I would not want to live underneath my children. It would drive me nuts.

[cumfy]

How long had you been there ?

If you had been there say 1 year and the downstairs tenant 15 y with no complaints about prior upstairs neighbours then any LL is unfortunately going to assume they will have less hassle if they find someone else.

[flatmum]

Maity having been in a similar situation to you I really feel for you. When we were leaving (by mutual agreement - we had finally managed to buy a family home) I used to dream of ways to pay them back for the stress and hassle they caused me. We had their contact details. It was their parents house who had become senile and had to go into a home and they couldn't bear to sell it. It had been mortgage free for years. Totally unmodernised, but great location. They made in the region of £130K off us whilst honouring the parents wishes not to sell until they were dead. And still moaned and bitched at every opportunity. About the beautiful carpets and curtains that they remembered as children and what great taste their parents had - they were literally falling apart and before we put our furniture in it looked like some kind of seventies nightmare! The house itself was falling apart and they refused to maintain it or spend any money on it. The windows were not double glazed and didnt fit properly so it was freezing. I put rags in the gaps so we could sleep at night and on an inspection she pulled it all out and said: we sleep with the windows open every night what's wrong with you! I kept it as immaculate as possible (really - I am very tidy, bordering on OCD) and my husband replaced much of the wiring which was original and dangerous (think mild electric shock every time you touched a light switch). We put new light fittings in at our own expense (with permission). It had a massive garden. We work full time. When we rented it it was in the contract that they would provide a gardener. After 2 years they sacked the gardener because he wasnt doing a good enough job, they thought, even though they were paying below market rates. My husband then offered to mainatain the garden for them as best as he could for the rest of the tenancy, for free. We had very good relationships with the neighbours and are still in touch with one family.

After 41/2 years the parents had died, they were making noises about selling and we managed to buy (after 4 previous attempts falling through). Then they were making noises about not refunding our full deposit as some curtain lining were ripped (they weren't ripped, the material was disintegrating - they were ancient (I washed them)) and the infamous garage wall non-incident etc. When we left, the inventory clerk at checkout said this is the cleanest old wreck I have ever seen and I will recommend in the strongest terms that they refund your full deposit. They reluctantly did. They then sold it instantly for nearly a million pounds the weekend after we left at the estate agent open day (over the asking price, due to unusually prime location). The new owners - of course, have gutted it and rebuilt a modern house on the plot. The precious curtains and carpets were instantly forgotten about. We drove past a few weeks after we left to see them being ripped out and put in a skip, along with the ancient avocado bathroom suite they wouldn't replace until the toilet actually cracked (while we were away for the weekend but still our fault apparentlly). It seemed very unfiar to me that they could treat people like that and then pocket half a million quid each.

BUT!, the reason I am telling you this is that, a year later, I barely give them a thought. they are not relevant to my life. We own our own house again and have never been happier. I am free to maintain and decorate my property as I wish. All thoughts of vengeance and moral rights and wrongs have disappeared. My life is ten times better. We will never rent again. I totally understand how hard it is to buy a property in some areas. But this fight simply isn't worth it in my experience. Move on. Karma will get him in the end. The best vengeace is to be happy elsewhere while he is still a bitter, miserable old person that cannot be happy and has to be constanly moaning about something like my old landladies.

[EhricLovesTeamQhuay]

Yes they do charge, it's £50 per year. I agree it is a lot of money but it is worth it for my security.

[OneLittleToddleTerror]

maity101 thanks for the clarification. I've never been a council tenant so I don't know.

[OneLittleToddleTerror]

Ehric our letting agents charged us for renewing for another 6 months. I think it's over a £100 but it's nearly 4 years ago so I might not remember the amount correctly. We always let it roll onto periodic tenancy because we just don't have that kind of money to waste every 6 months.

[maity101]

OneLittleToddleTerror... just to clarify... the police were saying that this is the case with council tenants. They admitted they didn't know the law with regard to private tenants and encouraged me to find out (which I have now done).

[EhricLovesTeamQhuay]

Private renting in the UK is a bloody disgrace. Sadly, landlords can give notice for any reason they want once the tenancy is up, one reason why I prefer to sign fixed term contracts one after the other rather than go on to a periodic contract.
OP I think you would be advised to read about private renting in the UK so you know where you stand in future.
Fwiw I share your pain. I was given NTQ with a baby once the rental market picked up and the landlord realised she could rent to professional sharers and charge more. My current neighbours are also racist and mad and have been making spurious complaints to the letting agent since the week I moved in 3 years ago. ThankfuLly the agents know they are mad and racist otherwise they could have hounded me out too. I understand, I sympathise and it is messed up. But it is legal.

[maity101]

Thanks for the wishes OneLittleToddleTerror! We are (hopefully) moving in 3 weeks, and I can tell you (despite wanting to exhaust my options and not leave quietly and apologetically) we will be very VERY glad to be gone!

And thank you to everyone for all of your advice and help! I have a much better understanding of the legalities now.

[OneLittleToddleTerror]

But the police isn't correct in that you aren't evicted based on hearsay. In the standard assured shorthold tenancy, the landlord can serve you two months notice to leave, while you serve one month. The simple fact is that they can ask you to leave with two months notice with no reason given.

[maity101]

You may be right about council/HA not having more rights LIZS... I wouldn't know first hand, but when I spoke to the police, they told us (in terms of our son playing) that we were breaking no laws, and that it if we were in a council flat, we couldn't be asked to leave or evicted based on hearsay. There would need to be evidence with sound equipment brought in to measure just how noisy a tenant is, which seems a much more fair process (from my perspective).

I think there are schemes for teachers/nurses/other public sector professions for shared ownerships where we are living... but we haven't investigated that too much, because we don't have enough saved yet for a deposit. (And with our moving costs and fees, our pitiful savings is about to take a hit).

[OneLittleToddleTerror]

maity101 I can also talk all day about my hatred of private tenancy . There's no security, and the landlords never fix anything. All the flats I lived in suffered from damp problems. One we have to move out because the landlord refused to fix our broken shower. He got a plumber to disconnect the electric shower. Council told me as long as there's hot water and a bath, then it's habitable. We were so angry about it when we leave the flat.

Good luck on finding yourself a dream house (or just any that you can live with). Then you can start cursing about the chains when buying and selling here

[LIZS]

I don't think going forward council/HA tenants will have more rights though. You say you have somewhere to go so you are not technically homeless and are correct in thinking you'd be low priority . If your dh is a teacher he may even be entitled to register for a low cost/part ownership scheme which are often a planning condition of new builds.

fwiw true eviction - such as for non payment of rent - is hard to achieve quickly in UK too and there are lots of legal technicalities which have to be followed. This is different to terminating a tenancy with due to notice.

[worsestershiresauce]

Good point LIZ. Under the terms of the head lease the management have the right to compulsory purchase my flat if the occupants are causing a nuisance. I was threatened with this when the neighbours made a complaint about my tenants end of exams party.

[maity101]

Thanks for the information LIZS.... I have made complaints to the building managers, but whether they will be taken seriously and passed along to the owner, I don't know. (Especially since he complained against us first and put us in a bad light). I was hoping to find out more information about him to contact his property owner directly (I don't know, but if I had to guess, I'd imagine he rents), but if it isn't possible, it isn't possible.

Someone had mentioned council flats.... I don't think we'd get one here. I'm told the waiting list is several years. I'd love to be in a council flat, as they seem to have many more rights than we do renting privately.

[maity101]

This is off the point.... but I do want to clarify that I'm not condemning the UK's way of doing things! I LOVE the UK! I literally have a countdown to how many months, weeks and days until I can apply to be a citizen. I'm very proud that my son is a dual-citizen and excited for the day when my family can go to the airport and hand them 3 passports from the same country.

I'm also not comparing... I'm just saying, I don't know what the laws are here.... hence why I'm asking. It's not anti-UK to assume that I might have similar rights here and work from the basis of what I know. Nor do I think that things should be done here as they are done in my home country.... I just didn't know the differences.

It does seem that the tenancy laws are incredibly different here. I was a home owner before I moved here and know full well that being a home owner is not all it's cracked up to be and has it's share of woes... but I now fully understand my husband's urgency to buy our own home!

[LIZS]

No you're not entitled to know about other occupiers other than what is in the public domain ie. you could do a land registry search for title and discover it isn't the same name as on electoral roll which might suggest it is rented - by really not worth the energy. There is also the possibility that your ll hadn't sought permission from the managing company to let the flat or perhaps not to a family with young children etc etc in which case the "complaints" may have opened up a technical issue for her too.

[worsestershiresauce]

It's not an eviction as such though is it, you LL is just ending the contract as is proper under the terms. I've just had a tenant do this to me - a month's notice they are leaving early due to a job relocation. It works both ways, and is fair imo.

[maity101]

Thank you for sharing flatmum.... it's perverse in a way, but it does make me feel better that others have had similar nonsense. And we are very anxious to buy! We've been savings for a deposit, but it often feels like we will never get enough to get on the property ladder unless we move north where property is more affordable. If we were able to, we would probably go up north right away - given this situation - and see it as an opportunity rather than a hassle. Unfortunately, my husband is a teacher (not unfortunately usually, but in this instance), and the period for giving notice and finding new employment is such a long, drawn out procedure.

I do understand that the knob downstairs has nothing to do with us being served the possession notice in a legal sense.... but here is another question that many people will probably think is petty. Am I entitled to know who he is and whether he owns or rents? Or is this considered private information?

I know lots of people will probably see it as petty... but we have a lot more evidence and reason to get him evicted than he has had to get us evicted. Not that I should want to do the owner of this flat any favours... but I think everyone would be pleased to see him evicted for his anti-social behaviour.

[OneLittleToddleTerror]

But this is just how it works in the UK. You have very little rights as a private tenant. There's no point comparing it with how they do things back home. Otherwise, why are you here anyway? I'm saying this as a foreigner. I'm Chinese from NZ, and have plenty of experience of racism. (NZ is far more racist then the UK, btw). And I can moan all day about the house buying process here if I want to.

But you always have to look on the bright side of things. There must be some reason why you are living in the UK now, isn't it?

[IneedAsockamnesty]

Its not fair and it is pretty shit.

And if your tenancy did not allow for notice to be given and it was instead a assured tenancy ( you have to do something wrong to be asked to leave) legally it would be unlikely to work as children paying Normally is not considered to be grounds for eviction.

But it not that sort of tenancy so it is legal,they don't even have to tell you why and you have no rights at all to see third party information.

On the upside when you move you will no longer be funding people who believe that behaving in this way is ok.

[flatmum]

BUt you are missing the point. This has nothing to do with the dikhed downstairs from a legal point of view. You have a contract with the landlady and she has given you 2 months notice which she is perfectly in her right to do. It may have happenned anyway without his complaints. And he will no doubt complain in a similar fashion about the next tenants. The landlady has years of hell ahead of her trying to rent out her investment with him around and the whole situation will be toxic and hideous.

Get your child out of this - that is the only imporant thing here. We rented for 5 years and the endless drama with the stupid women who owned it and the useless lettings agency was terrible - really gets you down and you feel constantly at the mercy of idiots talking rubbish about you (we apparently broke the garage wall and replaced it with a discoloured brick for example during our tenancy - the same brick that could be seen in the original particulars we had from when the house was first advertised for rent). THIS IS HOW IT IS WHEN YOU RENT - you must rememebr this. Do not get emotionally attached to rental properties - you are just a commodity to pay someone elses morotgage while it suits them. While you have to rent take pictures of everything before you move in. Document everything. Keep every email. And buy your own place as soon as you possibly can.

I can understand your desire for justice and vengeance but the most important thing is to rise above and move somewhere else so you can enjoy life without this crap. Your only other option is would seem to me if he is being openly abusive or rascist is to report him to the police. But that will be between you and him and have nothing to do with your tenancy of the landlady. Even if you got in touch with the landlady and told her how unfiar it was - would you really want her to change her mind and stay there having to deal with him and worry every time your child starts playing? (and he hasnt seen anything yet - 2/3 year olds are much nosier when they start running around, learning to jump and hop etc - as they should be able to)

[SavoyCabbage]

We were evicted because my husband is black. (Not in the uk) they thought we were trying to keep if from them! . We were given the correct amount of notice so all legal.

[maity101]

Yes, Chopstheduck, where I come from, it's far more difficult to get rid of a tenant. I should know... I use to be a landlord! It would take MONTHS to get rid of tenants who didn't pay their rent and were utterly destroying their apartments to the point where floors (not carpets) had to be ripped up and replaced and hazmat gear had to be worn.