Fertility warning to women

[Bumperslucious]

Thought this article was interesting give the very long debate we had on here a while ago.

[Horton]

Sorry, I know this is a bit old now but what do the Swiss/French do differently? I know childcare is a lot cheaper elsewhere in Europe.

PS If I had had children with my current DH in my early twenties, I might have been prosecuted. He is seven years younger than me.

[sunangel88]

cherryblossom - I agree! I would certainly have had children much earlier if I didn't have to worry about

1. having to choose between having a career or being a SAHM
2. if I were to choose the career then paying £800 per month on childcare
3. Leaving my baby in a nursery who may not feed/develop them adequately
4. Being penalised at work (passed over for promotions) due to taking time off for maternity leave
5. Potentially losing 1/2 our income as a couple and therefore being unable to pay our mortgage

It's a wonder that us UK lot ever have children, esp when we compare our lot with the Swiss / French

[spottedandstriped]

Just to add a positive message to this. I had some tests via Professor Ledgers clinic and it looked as if I wasn't going to be able to have children (consigned to being one of the 30 something infertile women...) however first month I tried I got pregnant, much to my amazement!

[LeahLurkerLoser]

Sigh. It's all very well for bloody doctors to go on and on about this. I don't know any women in their late thirties and early forties who are now unhappily childless that didn't know their fertility was in decline.
In every single case the choice was not down to a woman being careless, or ignorant, or selfish.
Every time it was because she was being messed around by a bloke. My cousin calls them The Baby Stealers.
Just off to curse my stupid about to fall off a cliff 35 year old ovaries and soon to be ex 'maybe next year' husband.

[cherryblossoms]

Late to thread - as always - sigh!

I always think that this is the kind of stuff that should make us think about the shape of the society we live in.

If this was a female-shaped society it would be shaped around this stuff: We'd be able to have babies/children younger, on our own, in a temporary relationship, perhaps, and not be penalised for that.

We could continue with education - because it would be structured more as something you go in and out of, with real childcare attached. It would be genuinely shaped to fit people with children attached (I don't think it's anywhere near that now).

Likewise employment. You wouldn't be shafted for part-time work, for broken employment patterns.

and so on.

Think how different our society would have to be to enable women to have kids when it suits their fertility. and think about what the shape of current society tells us about the biology of the current ideal citizen.

It's interesting that all the small, though useful, reforms we're currently achieving is still so far off that shape.

[honeydew]

My parents were 23 and 28 when they had me. My mum went back to nursing part time when I was small and my dad was a senior social worker- a managerial position.

In the late 70's /early 80's, they built a 3 bed house on land they bought in a nice small village, I went to private school, we had holidays abroad and ate well. All one one main salary with extra from my mum who then went back full time when I was older.That would be impossible today.

Men today just do not have the financial ability to settle down in their twenties and provide for a family. It's such a shame but the economic climate has changed beyond all recognition since my childhood and it makes it too difficult for men and women to have children young. The fact that most men don't want to settle down young is also a huge growing problem.

[spongebrainmaternitypants]

Doh! Of course you're not due in October - I'm ahead of you and due at the end of Oct!! Living up to my spongebrain name !

That's really interesting about the egg being able to get to the uterus without the tube - had never heard of that before. Will ask my IVF cons as I'm intrigued.

As you can imagine, DS2 was a huge shock, but a wonderful one!

[fluffles]

I would have loved to have met DP in my 20s but i didn't.... he on the other hand warns me that i wouldn't have loved him back then anyway so i guess it's better we didn't

Wonder what the stats are? Should i have dropped a sprog with the first guy who came along after uni? what would the chances have been of us still being together now?

[funtimewincies]

Congratulations too ! I'm due at the end of November (25+2 at the moment - I think).

Lol about your ds. I was told after I had the tube removed that the egg can find it's way to to the uterus (being a semi-permeable membrane) without passing through the tubes, but that it's pretty rare!

[spongebrainmaternitypants]

funtimes, we must both be due in October then? I'm 28 weeks pg!

Congratulations .

Our first two IVFs ended in m/c, then we had our gorgeous DS last June, and then despite having 'completely' blocked tubes, I conceived naturally when DS was 7 mths !

[funtimewincies]

Sorry to hear that spongebobmaternitypants . We've been very lucky, although if I say that to friends they look at me oddly. Although I've had an ectopic and 3 mcs, I'm pg and have a ds. Oddly, we were at the point where, if this pg wasn't to be, we were going to call it a day and just be grateful for having ds. I'm now 25 weeks! Can I take it from your name that IVF has worked for you ?

[Upwind]

But tied down to what? If it is tied down in insecure, inadequate, cramped accommodation and never feeling like you measure up - that is just crap. Nobody wants that. The provider thing matters more to men though.

[beanieb]

might it be more to do with the fact that men feel more tied down if a baby is introduced to the relationship?

[Upwind]

Beanieb - I appreciate that it is hard, but that is the same reason it is a taboo. I have sat with a group of friends in a pub, while men talked about how they were in no rush to have kids but would have them in a few years - their DPs, in their thirties, said nothing and nobody else wanted to put the women in an awkward position.

I agree with "sprogger on Mon 10-Aug-09 19:59:12
It would be quite nice to see this whole debate framed in the media as "So why HAVEN'T women been sprogging away wildly in their 20s although these same bloody headlines have been blaring away at them for over a decade?"

Just think of the social debate it could start. "

My pet theory is that men subconsiously feel they ought to be able to provide for their DC, a similar nice home etc., which they grew up in. These days few can realistically aspire to that, so many men put off settling down.

Few women want to have babies in tiny starter flats or insecure rentals.

[spongebrainmaternitypants]

funtime, we had exactly the same conversation and concluded emphatically that we would never have IVF for the exact reasons you outline. Funny how, when faced with being told you have blocked tubes and it's IVF or nothing you change your mind in a heartbeat .

beanieb, yes I appreciate it must be v hard when in that situation to be faced with these banner headlines . I just wish some of my friends who haven't even started ttc yet but want children 'one day' would listen to them .

[beanieb]

My sil is 35 and has been trying to have a baby for 8 years, that's since she was 27. She has had no success apart from one short lived pregnancy earlier this year after IVF.

I know that fertility declines after you hit 30, she knows that too. However for her IVF is really the only way she can have kids, certainly has been the only thing which has got her pregnant in 8 years of trying.

I don't know, I am rambling. I didn't start trying until I was 37 and I am sure it's my age which is stopping me from conceiving. I knew age would be a problem but I had no other choice really. Am just happy I am with someone who wants a family, wish I had met him earlier. I won't have IVF as I can't afford to. I just don't think women in their late 30s who are having problems appreciate seeing this kind of headline all the time.

whatever, I am sure I will get over it some time.

[funtimewincies]

spongebrainmaternitypants - I always thought that 30 was quite late , but that was mainly because dh and I knew in advance that IVF would not do for us if we couldn't conceive naturally. We'd seen the pain and heartbreak it had caused friends (as well as giving them lovely children ) but in the run up to our wedding we'd had many a wine-fuelled discussion about all sorts of things and we had agreed that we'd rather deal with being childless than put ourselves through IVF. So waiting any longer was making me twitchy. Just as well !

[PortAndLemon]

When I was a librarian I read catalogued a very interesting book about media misrepresentaton of research - I think that was focusing on the social sciences, but the same principle hold.

One that sticks in my mind was a study which had looked at life expectancy in the UK against various socioeconomic indicators, of which car ownership, fairly uncontroversially was one. This was consistently reported in the media as "buying a car makes you live longer" complete with quotes from Stirling Moss about how the research was clearly absolute tosh.

[Sheeta]

Yes, there are countless instances of trial data being reported, then it's only when you look into it and it's a non-blinded idiotic trial of 15 people that's completely meaningless.

I just wish that if they're reporting a discovery/new result/someone's opinion they'd make it clear which one of those it is and give it a bit of context. Also, don't assume all viewers are idiots, and explain some of the results. We're not watching Newsround, it's the 10pm news FFS

[Upwind]

No, Sheeta, I agree. Science does not work well as a news topic. The latest research is reported out of context, often in a misleading way, by news reporters who don't even have a basic grasp of statistics.

The really important stuff just doesn't really get covered. I think the 24 hour news reportage makes it even harder for them to properly explore any topic.

[Sheeta]

sorry, got very off topic there.

[Sheeta]

The BBC etc seemingly reports a different trial/discovery/random medic's opinion almost every day that the really important stuff (like this) gets lost in a sea of 'tea gives you cancer/tea cures cancer' type reporting.

There's a story today about the rise in mouth and throat cancer's due to alcohol intake, but it'll get largly ignored.

I'm not explaining myself very well, but you hopefully know what I mean.

I'm quite shocked that there are so many women who don't know about the fertility decline in their 30's. It's just something I've always known - we had DS before we got married, as I was 30 and didn't feel comfortable waiting.

[spongebrainmaternitypants]

sheeta, no need to apologise!

I suppose it could come across as scaremongering, but no matter how often this message is put across in the media I still find myself having conversations with very educated, well-read friends of mine who seem to think that our fertility is somehow extended just because we want it to be, or that, if all else fails IVF is the answer . One 41 year old friend said to me the other day that if they don't get pg by Christmas they'll have IVF in the New Year so they can have a baby next year . IVF at her age has a shockingly low five per cent success rate .

[Sheeta]

spongebrain Sorry, I didn't mean unsubstantiated - I meant scaremongering. Didn't think before posting.

Of course it's true!! I just used the wrong word..

[CloudDragon]

too true spongebrain