Hurrah for the moderate Muslims of Luton!

[monkeytrousers]

www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/faith/article6392580.ece

[Ozziegirly]

of course I know it's a religion.

What my post said was that there was never the same backlash against catholics, tarring all catholics with the "terrorist" label when the IRA were carrying out their bombing campaign.

So I said, ergo, the backlash against muslims (who are, on the whole, not white anglo saxons) was more of a race issue than a religion issue, and in fact, the fact that they are muslims is probably irrelvant to some people as they would simply focus on the colour of their skin, whatever their religion is.

[onagar]

Ozziegirly, which bit was racist?

And what race would that be. You do know it's a religion don't you?

[monkeytrousers]

Belfast bloke, "In fact, he argues they they have more in common with Islamic extremists than with other Christians."

This is the kind of relativsm that turns the argument upside down and back up it's own backside. It is not help to anyone except extremists.

Neo-conservatism could also be called neo-liberalism. It is progressive values with a conservative slant to foerign policy - i.e. the manitanence of indiginous cultural values, especially liberal democratic ones which are being eroded by ultra conservative extremimists who would wish to impose a male dominated patriachy - which is bad news for most men as well as women, as it anly benefits men who have magaged to collect a lot of resources, allowing them to practice polgyny - which far from being good for all men means most men are sentenced to a life of celibacy.

That's just one of the perks for the men on top of the ultra conservative pyramid.

You may disagree with Bush, but to compare them with people who kill women for being raped, hang homosexuals, and tyranise everybody is ludicrous

[bloss]

Message withdrawn

[LovelyTinOfSpam]

I don't know. If 200 people "descended" on a BNP rally of 6 people I'd think that was a bit dodgy too.

There aer laws in place to stop people stirring up trouble and making inflamatory public speeches. They were doing it every week. It should have been a police matter.

It shouldn't be up to ordinary people to go and sort it out situations like this. It could have turned really nasty.

[Ozziegirly]

It must be difficult for moderate Muslims, all tarred with the same brush by people who don't know any better.

When the IRA were in full swing back in the 1980s/90s I simply don't believe there was the same backlash against "moderate" Catholics.

Ergo, I'm sure there is an underlying level of racism there as well - which is somehow "allowed" because "well, they might be terrorists, mightn't they?"

[KayHarkerDoesNotSimper]

Yes, saw this and was extremely pleased. Well done to them.

[BelfastBloke]

In the same way as Islamist is a term which means a very politicised, extremist practitioner of Islam,

so Andrew Sullivan and commentators like him describe as 'Christianist' the nutcases who took over the US Republican party during the Bush years.

Sullivan is a political commentator, British-born, Christian, gay, conservative, and is at the forefront of those who argue that the Bush Republicans have very little to do with social and economic conservatism. In fact, he argues they they have more in common with Islamic extremists than with other Christians.

[monkeytrousers]

and well done Mr Baksh. Incredibly brave and people like him need support.

[monkeytrousers]

Well, if you think that is mobbish, all I cam say is you have little imagination of the bullying and threats that take place to stop moderate muslims having a voice in the first place.

This is not some side show, it's life and death - either we as athiests, christians, moderate muslims or whatever make a strong show against murderous extremism, or we allow extreminsm to flourish.

On a very fundamental level, we need to value our culture enough to fight for it.

[Longtalljosie]

Islamist is a term usually tied up with political, and extremist political, interpretations of Islam. It's not a term used in the context of moderates.

I think we can take it as read it was the extremists making the synagogue comment. It's pretty common for people of that sort of belief to think anyone who challenges them is part of some sort of non-specific, wide-ranging "Zionist conspiracy"

[onagar]

I have said I don't blame those who took action. I have every sympathy for their position and feelings. I'm just not sure we should leave it to private groups. If the first lot were doing something wrong (which they were) why are we not dealing with them properly?

Mr Baksh said: ?There were about 200 of us and just a few of them. We didn?t even let them put their stall up. This is not the end. This is just the beginning>>

[LovelyTinOfSpam]

"Qadeer Baksh, chairman of the Islamic Centre in Luton, said a group of around 200 moderate followers descended on Bury Park in the town - where the extremists regularly preach from a stall - to drive the protesters away.

Numbering about six, the extremists were surrounded and themselves barracked with calls of ?We don?t want you here?, said Mr Baksh. "

Sounds mobbish to me, TBH.

It's a shame that the police couldn't do anything to stop the extremists setting up shop and preaching every week. I did think that there were laws against that sort of behaviour.

[monkeytrousers]

I think you are being way too premature in falling down that particular silppery slope Onagar.

We all need to get these things in perspective. What is at rick is democacy itself. A pacifist apprach won't do. Moderates have to assert themselves. There are no mobs involved. I'd be a bit offeneded by that comment if I was a moderate muslim, as if I had no right to march and challenge extremism myself

[LovelyTinOfSpam]

Onager that was the one thing for me as well, that it seemed a bit mob-ruley. It's a shame the police can't do anything about it and it has to be left up to groups of people to sort out. It could have turned quite nasty.

[onagar]

First reaction is to cheer for them! I'm not surprised that most muslims are ordinary people who want to get on with their lives and it's good to hear from them.

Then I went and made some coffee and started to consider it a bit more.

I'm still 100% behind these people in Luton. Their intent was clearly good. I'm just wondering if we want to see rival groups policing the streets to stop the other religious/political group getting the upper hand. That didn't work out too well in Northern Ireland did it.

[JonAndHate]

I hope this gets at least 1/4 of the publicity the extremists got with their protests.

Sadly, not hopeful...

[LovelyTinOfSpam]

True Edam.

"Islamist" as a word though seems open to various interpretations.

They should have stuck with the old tried and tested "extremist" term to make the article clear.

[edam]

Islamic extremists ARE anti-semitic as in hate Jews, though. Look at the leader of Iran.

[monkeytrousers]

That's what it means in political terms Puss. Most of whom are Wahabbists.

[PussinJimmyChoos]

Er no - Arabic is a semitic language, so you can't classify Islamists as anti semetic!

[SomeGuy]

Islamism is generally to mean radical Islam. One can be opposed to Islamism but in favour of Islam.

[LovelyTinOfSpam]

Thanks cherry.

So not really one clearly defined meaning - and not by definition anti-semitic - I suppose depends on which definition you accept of the word. Reminds me of the many different faces of words like "feminist". Different things to different people.

I think the article should have stated clearly that it was the extremists who were making the comments - too much room for mis-interpretation amongst people who, like me, might simply take Islamist to be an alternative word for Muslim.

[cherryblossoms]

islamist

[edam]

Quite, MT, but my first impression was it was the people objecting to extremists who had used the phrase about getting back to the synagogue. Reading it again, it was the extremists, not the objectors, who were using anti-semitic language.