Murder in school

[hmb]

Now that Alan Pennell has been found guilty of the murder of Luke Walmsley, it has been mentioned that he has had two previous court cases, one for violence to a policeman and nother for punching another student in the face three times.

This boy has a tragic background as his mother was killed in a drunk druving accident. However the question has to be asked, should children like this be educated in mainstream schools?

I have no training in how to defend myself, or the children in my care from this sort of violent student. Shouldn't kids like this be in schools where they can be correctly monitored, keeping themselves and everyone else safe?

Bring back Approved Schools for violent young offenders IMHO

[hmb]

Spot on, mean bean. Agree 100%. The crazy thing is that while these kids are in school and off the streets the problem is being ignored. And there do seem to be more children in need of help these days (she says, sounding as old as hell)

[Janh]

It will cost nearly £2500 a week to keep him in a young offenders' institution. That amount of money paid to each school with a child like him to deal with would make a huge difference...but then most kids who go off the rails don't end up stabbing someone.

There is no easy answer. I know he rammed the knife into the boy's chest (not 7" though, that was the full length of the knife including handle, the blade was either 3" or 4", not that that's any better really), and there was a lot of rage behind it, but did he actually realise it would kill him? He had said beforehand that he would stab Luke but did he really really mean to kill him? Did he even know exactly where the heart is?

Have just had this "discussion" with DH who said "the school should have dealt with it before it got this far". Yeah, right. Whose responsibility is it? Who decides which kids might kill someone? Who pays to deal with them before it's too late?

[hmb]

TBH, I think that the buck should stop first at the parent.

Schools don't have the facilities, resources or the rights to stop this sort of thing happening. You only have to see how hard it is to exclude a child for repeated violent behaviour to see that.

Did he think it would kill him, possibly not, but I'd eat this keyboard if he didn't mean to do serious harm, inguring him badly if not killing him. He hit him so hard that the knife cut through the breast bone and went right through the heart. A flick knife has no other use. The boy collected knives and voilent videos. And I bet the father is saying, 'why didn't the school do something', forgetting that the responsibility for the boy was his.

[Janh]

I am agreeing with you, hmb!

(Still regret the way this boy's life has turned out though, and the mess it has made of so many others'.

"Pennell's mother had been tragically killed in a car crash, along with her boyfriend, when the boy was just four. With his father often away working as a lorry driver, Nottingham Crown Court heard that Pennell was often left to his own devices and spent much of his youth getting drunk and hanging around with a succession of girlfriends."

Nobody loved him properly or taught him how to behave or, probably, even paid him much attention at all. Luke's mother has described him as an evil boy. Is that fair?)

[Rowlers]

I don't believe anyone is truly evil. What is evil anyway? He's a neglected boy with little going for him. I still can't get my head round what he did but evil? No. Pathetic yes. Pitiful yes. Misguided yes. Stupid yes!

[suedonim]

Jimjams, re your comment about autistic units and middle class schools. Dd1's previous primary school, which was very m/class, had a unit for autistic children attached to it. No one objected to it being formed, the children in the main school were educated about the new children and afaic, it worked well. Another unit was set up in the nearby town, also in a m/class area and that ruffled no feathers either, it simply wasn't an issue for anyone.

[Jimjams]

Meanbean- no-one can ever take the long term view on anything.

Sorry suedonim I was down on middle class parents yesterday- just heard some whisperings from the school gate...... here though they have attached the unit to one of the worst schools in the city (with some of the biggest problems and in one of the most deprived areas) which I think is a bad mistake if you want to try reintegration- the kids/teachers in the mainstream part of the school have more than enough to deal with.

[Jimjams]

integration obviously rather than reintegration....

[misdee]

my sister worked in a special unit fior kids with EBD amongst other things. i could never do it. she was assulted a few times, and found the work very tough.

At 14, most children know stabbing someone would seriously imjure if not kill some-one. Even if he did have a tough upbringing, then IMO its no excuse. other people have lost parents, been in care etc, and even tho they have found things hard they dont go stabbing anyone. IF he did have behaviour issues, then that should have been dealt with. i cant get my head around the whole thing. you send your kids to school, thinking they will be safe, but kids and getting stabbed, assulted etc in schools. it all seems very sad to me.

[Hulababy]

Not had time to read all this but from the bits I egt I have to agree with hmb on this. Most state schools don't have the resources to deal with pupils with such severe issues, and certainly not to deal with such tragic consequences of these.

Have to say also though that don't forget that this wasn't a young child. The offender was 16??? So, even with EBD (assuming no other SN, etc.) would know that stabbing is wrong. Yes he has had an awful life, but it can't condone what he did - it was a terrible crime and he must be opunished through the courts/law as such, surely?

School should be a safe place for our children. We have to keep it that way.

[Piffleoffagus]

reading the interview of Alan Pennells sister in the news this morning...
She says she hopes he rots in hell.
Apparently Luke's sister was Pennells ex girlfriend and had a fight with Pennells new girlfriend, this Alan Pennells sister says that whatever was said on the phone after that caused Alan Pennell to put the phoen down and say in front of his family, I'm going to stab him...
With ref to the schools, how much reponsibility cna we place on under resourced schools to factor in these children. It is a mixture of parenting, diagnosis and care.
Easy huh... I despair at times, how many of us have seen future violent kids while out...