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Well done Ed Miliband for speaking out about the Daily Mail's article on his father

486 replies

claig · 01/10/2013 15:05

The Daily Mail used a low tactic of accusing Ed miliband's father of hating Britain.

I think it was a nasty thing to do. Just because someone is a Marxist and may criticise some aspects of the country or its instiutions does not mean that they hate Britain.

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claig · 05/10/2013 16:42

limitedperiodonly, you are always polite and it is always a pleasure to discuss with you.

Yes, there are some rightwing posters who are quite rude sometimes. It is a shame, but maybe their rudeness sometimes stems from their anger at some of the things that are done in our name or done under our noses.

None of us are the ones to blame for what goes on. We should all direct our anger at those who are in power and who hold responsible positions that should be in service of the public rather than themselves.

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flippinada · 05/10/2013 16:49

"None of us are the ones to blame for what goes on. We should all direct our anger at those who are in power and who hold responsible positions that should be in service of the public rather than themselves."

Although I am coming from a different perspective I agree 100% with this.

This has been a really interesting and (for me at least) an educational discussion.

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claig · 05/10/2013 21:05

Fascinating 13 minute BBC Radio 4 profile of Paul Dacre.

Sounds a bit of a nightmare to work for - a bit of a tyrant it seems.

Very interesting contribution by Damian McBride. He says that Dacre believes that "the power of the Daily Mail came from its readers and that sense that it represented the mainstream public opinion in Britain" and that Dacre was unimpressed by power and did not kowtow to anyone in power but instead spoke "truth to power".

I don't know much about McBride and he obviously did do unethical things, but he sounds far smarter to me than the bombastic Campbell who seems to act like a saloon bar drunk challenging Dacre to come and have a go if you're hard enough.

www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b03c241h

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HomeHelpMeGawd · 06/10/2013 00:28

Claig might be polite, but she holds some perniciously wrong ideas. The notion that thousands of patients were dying of dehydration each year in the NHS is just one of them. It is not based on any sort of evidence, just a moral fervour that it is The Truth and that The Establishment likes to kill people. Despite the Establishment in this case being medical professionals.

It's crap, and that's putting it politely. It reminds me of vaccine scaremongers. Or idiots who persuade people to stop taking Antiretrovirals

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claig · 06/10/2013 02:46

I got that wrong by saying dehydration, because I added that word in at the end and didn't reread it before pressing send. I meant thousands of people were dying. And I did not say each year.

Don't you understand that the public has lost faith in the Establishment? Don't you understand that we are against their gagging orders that seek to hide from us the real truth?

It was the Mail that campaigned so strongly about the mothers who were jailed under this medical/psychiatric diagnosis of "Munchausen Syndrome by Proxy".

It was the Mail that demanded, day in day out, the resignation of the NHS Chief, whom they termed "The Man With No Shame", and it was the public who paid for their copy of the Mail every day and cheered them on as the government continued to maintain that they had full confidence in him.

"It reminds me of vaccine scaremongers"
And it was the Mail that published the story that Labour's Policy Review Chief, Cruddas, had even contemplated a policy that made some benefits partially conditional on vaccine jabs.

"Taking child benefit away from parents whose children are not given the MMR vaccine is an "interesting idea", Labour's policy chief has said, while stressing it is not being considered."

"Shadow Chancellor Ed Balls has dismissed the idea out of hand, saying that making state assistance dependent on parental choice on vaccinations would be "punitive"."

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-24210843

The Mail published its story because they know its readers care about things like this and that we don't find these ideas "interesting" and that "punitive" is not a strong enough word for us, we believe they are pernicious.

The Mail reader does not trust the Establishment, we do not trust some politicians and spin doctors who take us to war on the basis of dodgy dossiers, and we do not trust some of the same people who want to regulate our free press or change the culture of our Daily Mail newspaper, and we do not have faith in some of our Medical Establishment either, such as the NHS Chief, dubbed "The Man With No Shame" by the Daily Mail.

They said what the Mail thought was scaremongering and crap over the Liverpool Care Pathway, but after months and years of pressure from the Mail, the politicians eventually had to hold a review into the policy and they eventually scrapped it because they found some aspects of it unacceptable.

"When the Mail first highlighted readers’ harrowing stories about the suffering inflicted on patients and their families in the name of the Liverpool Care Pathway, the medical establishment reacted with fierce hostility.

When we called for an inquiry into the NHS-approved guidelines on end-of-life care, we were contemptuously accused of scaremongering and interfering in matters we didn’t understand.

Complaints were lodged with the Press regulatory body, seeking disciplinary action against us

//www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-2364743/Liverpool-Care-Pathway-abolished-Victory-decency-end-life-care.html


The reason that the Mail is so adamant that it will fight attempts to have any form of state regulation of our free press is because it knows that this could be the slippery slope that leads to the Establishment shutting up the voice of dissent and preventing the awkward revelations of the truths behind their gagging orders. The Mail represents the views of millions of people and it follows their views rather than leads them and it is in fact way behind them, but at least it is with them, unlike so much of the rest of our Establishment media, even though the public actually funds some of it.

In the course of writing replies to this thread, I stumbled on the Spectator. i don't read the Spectator as I usually only find time to read the Mail. But there is some brilliant writing on there and I will have to try and find time in future to start reading it.

This is something written by Rod Liddle and it is what many of us really think is behind the Establishment's attacks on the Mail and its attempt to have some form of state regulation of our free press.

"As some of us said at the time of Leveson, the metro-liberal left does not really give a toss about intrusion into the lives of drug-addled slebs. It wishes instead to stop newspapers saying stuff with which they fervently disagree. David Sillitoe’s piece for the BBC last night confirmed this; and if the BBC can make use of Alastair Campbell for this purpose, then so be it."

blogs.spectator.co.uk/rod-liddle/2013/10/alastair-campbell-moral-arbiter-pull-the-other-one/

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Custardo · 06/10/2013 02:51

can't agree more with your 16:42 post claig

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claig · 06/10/2013 03:14

They should stick to attacking the Tories, and in some regards we will agree with them.

But if they attack the Mail, then they attack the people and if they deride and mock the Mail reader, then they attack the people, and millions of us will join together and sing the words of that brilliant Muse song, and we will be triumphant and we will maintain our century old rights to a free press.

"They will stop degrading us, They will not control us, We will be victorious"

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claig · 06/10/2013 03:18

Thanks, custardo. We very rarely agree on things, but we must put aside all our differences and unite and prevent any attempts to divide and rule us, because how we are governed affects each and every one of us in the same way.

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Custardo · 06/10/2013 03:20

i'm sure Mr. bellamy would be overjoyed at being the lyricist for the mail.

The papers rarely report the news as far as politics is concerned, they control it

therefore the masses are spoon fed whatever tripe offered by whatever newspaper.

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claig · 06/10/2013 03:28

Yes, you are right, but in a free country with a vibrant free press that remains profitable and can still flourish, then there are always competing philosophies, views and ideas - there is never the one Establishment state-controlled, regulated consensus.

Different newspapers feed us different tripe from their different positions, but in the melee of ideas, some of them necessarily, will give voice to the millions of people out there who have no voice at all. We have seen that the politicians don't do that, our only hope is that some of our free press can do that.

It was the same in medieval days. It was the invention of the printing press that was so devastating for the powers that be at that time and for the Church establishment at that time, because it enabled the voice of the people to circulate and be heard.

A free press is the basis of a free country. Our press is not perfect and lots of it is twaddle and full of crap, but without it, we are truly stuffed.

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HomeHelpMeGawd · 06/10/2013 08:12

Oops, I should not have said "each year". But as I say, perniciously wrong. The idea that thousands of people were dying unnecessarily is perniciously wrong, based on a wilful over interpretation of HSMR data. That is why the Mail was accused of scaremongering - because it said thousands of patents were dying unneccessarily when they bloody well weren't.

I understand very well that the typical Mail reader likes to think of themselves as a doughy fighter against the Establishment.

But it is not true and leads to cognitive dissonance and wilful blindness. For example, it was that hated pillar of the Establishment, the BBC's Today Programme that notoriously did not trust the dodgy dossier and said so. In doing do, the Beeb ended up fighting an existential crisis. I'd love to see any contemporaneous headlines from the Mail inveighing against the dossier or arguing that the country should not go to war....

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claig · 06/10/2013 08:55

'I understand very well that the typical Mail reader likes to think of themselves as a doughy fighter against the Establishment.'

The Mail reader doesn't like to think it the Mail reader does distrust the Establishment, which is probably very different to your faith in them, and Dacre understands that well and reflects the views of his readers.

Whether Dacre shares the Mail readers' views, i don't know, but given that he has lasted for so long in that role and delivered such success for the Mail, my assumption is that he shares many of the same concerns as us and that he is a principled man.

'In doing do, the Beeb ended up fighting an existential crisis'

Existential crisis? Don't believe it. A good tale but I doubt it. In fact, Patten, I think, said that the Savile crisis was the biggest crisis that the BBC had faced over the past many years, even more critical than the dodgy dossier affair. But of course, the Savile affair was not an existential one either, because tghe BBC is part of the Establishment and we read today in the Mail

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2445381/Jimmy-Savile-victims-paid-little-1-500-compensation-BBC.html

The BBC is above real censure because they are opart of teh great and the good and the public pay for them.

I never quite bought all the Gilligan, BBC stuff and the supposed battle with the old mucker, Coward-baiting Campbell. The end result was that a good man, Dr Kelly, had his name was revealed. But I haven't really looked into it, so I don't have a full understanding of it.

'I'd love to see any contemporaneous headlines from the Mail inveighing against the dossier or arguing that the country should not go to war'

I don't know if it argued against the war, i can't remember. But, Mail readers do not believe everything the Mail says. The Mail loves Thatcher but Petite's mum, a dedicated and doubtless doughty Daily Mail reader, does not. The Mail reader can spot spin and is rarely taken in. The Mail reader has an alacrity of mind, a grasp of facts and a critical faculty that some have described as being similar to Occam's Blazer.

The Mail has all points of view. There were articles against the Kosovo War and articles for. The Mail does not shy away from debate, and there are probably some articles that support the BBC and the Establishment too, but most Mail readers skip those because they understand that those ones are spin.

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claig · 06/10/2013 09:00

BBC - Blair Broadcasting Corporation

Existential crisis? You're taking the piss!

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claig · 06/10/2013 09:07

Is the BBC worried about its independence and press freedom on its internet sites etc. Is it with the Mail, and the people, and most of the rest of our media in opposing state regulation or doesn't it care, because it may already be regulated and already back the socialists, enemies of promise, enemies of freedom and enemies of a free press in their attempt to stifle political dissent?

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claig · 06/10/2013 09:09

No, i remember now, the BBC has no fear because it is impartial and unbiased and politically neutral, so it will not take positions on issues such as climate change which are in any way controversial.

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claig · 06/10/2013 09:51

In fact, all this stuff about the Mail being anti the BBC for commercial reasons is I suspect false. The Mail, the people's paper, doesn't fear competition from the BBC in any way because it knows that the Mail's readers don't believe much of what the BBC says. The BBC has lost its credibility.

I suspect the BBC fears the Mail because they know that the public is awake and they know that the issue of truth is at stake.

I listened again to that great Muse track called 'Uprising'. These lines spell out what the battle for press freedom is all about

"keep us all dumbed down and hope that we will never see the truth around"

"and all the green belts wrapped around our mind and endless red tape to keep the truth confined"

"They will not force us, they will stop degrading us.
They will not control us, we will be victorious"

And at the vanguard in the fight for freedom will be the Daily Mail.

When they took on the Daily Mail, they took on the wrong enemy.

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HomeHelpMeGawd · 06/10/2013 10:03

As I say, cognitive dissonance and wilful blindness - fully on display here. I might add, a willingness to make unwarranted assumptions about other individuals, such as your ascribing to me a faith in the Establishment.

Convincing yourself that losing the CEO of an organisation due to government pressure, as happened with the dossier, was not an existential crisis for the BBC, is as clear a sign as could be of wilful blindness.

You assert that Mail readers have sharply honed critical faculties and a heterogeneity of views. But you are unwilling to acknowledge a fact that challenges your personal orthodoxy that the BBC is always a slavish part of the Establishment. I think that's a great shame

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claig · 06/10/2013 10:13

'Convincing yourself that losing the CEO of an organisation due to government pressure, as happened with the dossier, was not an existential crisis for the BBC, is as clear a sign as could be of wilful blindness.'

Greg Dyke - leftwing,
Campbell - Coward-baiter and leftwing
Blair - Tory
BBC - Blair Broadcasting Corporation

Patten said that the Savile Crisis was an even bigger crisis. Yes some people got sacked and reshuffled, but was there real change?

No, I don't think that the BBC is always a slavish part of the Establishment. they have freedom on issues of less importance, but when it comes to issues of national importance, then of course they are subject to the Establishment and I agree that that should be the case and is only right. I don't believe that they are independent.

Many leftwingers dislike what the BBC did at Orgreave during the Miners' Strike. I can understtand why the BBC did what it did, because that was a critical issue.

The problem with the BBC, in my opinion, is not on the big issues (where they have no independence), but on the small issues where they should show independence and yet nearly always back the left rather than the Mail reader.

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PetiteRaleuse · 06/10/2013 10:23

It's not competition from the BBC as a website or paper that they fear, it is to do with commercial local interests. I'm trying to find an explanation for you, it is a long time since I read up on it.

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claig · 06/10/2013 10:23

I love the BBC because it is one of our country's greatest institutions and we watch it from before we can talk until we die.

I am sorry that it is losing its credibility with many people because it is not impartial enough on issues of lesser importance. I hope it strikes a better balance so that we can all believe what it says about the polar bear a bit more.

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claig · 06/10/2013 10:36

People laud these bullies like Campbell, but in my opinion, he has ruined the great Labour Party's credibility.

The Labour Party is also one of our greatest institution that goes back over 100 years and was responsible for great advances for our people.

We read how some of this New Labour gang of bullies and bounders were pissed off their faces, how they swore like troopers and punched chairs and threw mobile phones and called some of their lifelong voters bigots and looked as if they were about to knock out in a fit of fury, anyone unfortunate enough to be present in the office, if a Daily Mail headline was not to their liking. They have discredited the great Labour Party.

The spinners, the corrosive corrupters of the truth have destroyed its credibility and it will take them years to recover and during that time they will not be able to effectivly serve teh people


I don't want these same spinners, or any others like them, to be anywhere near the BBC, because spin destroys the trust the people have in the BBC.

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Chipstick10 · 06/10/2013 18:24

There are many left wing posters who are beyond rude. Some are down right scary. Wishing death and pain on Tories. Lunacy I call it.
Why is it only right wingers who are nutters? Don't get it!

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Custardo · 06/10/2013 18:44

i think what you are saying is that there are rude people whatever the politics...no?

there was an article the other day ( forget which paper) which looked at why tories always say the left are 'misguided' loony left etc.

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MadameDefarge · 06/10/2013 23:06

extremists with little self control are the bane of all political parties. elected or no.

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PetiteRaleuse · 07/10/2013 09:42

Extremists in any field give the moderates a bad name but they are a necessary evil to help put things in perspective I think.

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