Social 'cleansing'? What are the implications?

[Solopower1]

Camden Council wants to move 750 poor families north to places like Bradford and Leicester. They say that because of the new benefit caps (which limit total welfare payments to £500 a week for families, no matter how many children they have or how much they have to pay for rent), some families are not going to be able to afford to live in London. So they're shunting them all up north.

I don't think this is a new idea, btw, but I still find it shocking.

When the govt were discussing these benefit cap plans, they must have worked out the implications for the families that would no longer be able to afford to live in their houses. And they will have realised that this would happen more in the poorer, Labour-run (?) councils. It's inspired, it's so clever. In one fell swoop they free up all the lovely expensive properties being wasted on poor families, and the Labour councils get the blame for it. It's absolute genius, don't you think?

So what sort of place will London be, when the heart is ripped out of it, and all the children go? Perhaps a tad melodramatic, but the Pied Piper springs to mind - not that I am blaming the Mayor and Corporation of Camden, particularly (don't know enough about it, tbh).

money.aol.co.uk/2013/02/14/council-to-export-poor-familes-to-north/

[Rhianna1980]

Beggars can't be choosers. I would love to live in London and I can't afford it. Stop moaning.

[CogitoErgoSometimes]

"Where are these people going to live when they shove them all up north?"

That never happens. This story has been popping up in various guises ever since the HB cap was announced and it never bears close examination. Some daft councillor writes a memo to Lincoln council asking about empty homes, fellow councillors say 'that's a bloody stupid idea' and it gets dropped by everyone except those who use it as ammo to make their case why a HB cap is a bad thing.

[Solopower1]

No, Cogito. It's government policy. That's not fate. And we can do something about it.

[frustratedworkingmum]

I couldnt imagine why anyone would actually Choose to live in london anyway

[Solopower1]

Let's hope it will be dropped. It's hard to see how it could possibly succeed anyway.

What's scary is that it has even been proposed as an idea. The government in a democracy is supposed to work in the best interests of as many of the population as possible. This govt is not doing that.

[JakeBullet]

Rhiannon.....go to London, say you've left an abusive relationship maybe....they'll stick you in a refuge or hostel.....a year or so down the line you might be housed by the council(if you get lucky)........but you won't have any say where. It night be a des res in a naice area or a crappy moldy flat on tbe the top floor of a tower block.

Oh and you might get settled, build up support networks and even find some work but then get told..sorry love.....this is now an expensive area so off you go up north, uproot kids from school etc....theres possibly no work when you get there either but still it'll make some smug taxpayer happy somewhere.

Thats the reality for some people you are judging and dismissing.

[CogitoErgoSometimes]

"What's scary is that it has even been proposed as an idea."

In fairness, it is conceivable that someone, not manacled to a particular postcode, fed up with living in central London and fancying a fresh start, might think that relocating somewhere outside of the M25 is a golden opportunity. Isn't necessarily a tragedy...

[Catkinsthecatinthehat]

Telsa made a good point earlier about these 'expensive' areas not being very salubrious. Inner London isn't all Mayfair. Camden has lots of very poor areas such as Somers Town, Kentish Town etc. Neighbouring Islington which is perceived as affluent is about 60% social housing.

In my London neghbourhood ex-Council flats have quintupled in price in under 15 years. Huge swathes of them are in the hands of BTL consortia who own dozens, if not hundreds of flats and charge the maximum they can get away with under HB rules. Chances are most of these expensively housed families are living in these ex-Council flats rather than mansions, many of them in a much worse state of repair than those remaining udner the ownership of the Council. Families used to buy ex-Council flats as starter-homes. That's now impossible when what cost £70k in 1999 is now £360,000 due to BTL.

I know a lot of people have said 'just move further out', but there's an underlying problem when people on relatively good incomes can't afford to buy even the smallest accommodation in very ordinary areas.

Something needed to be done as huge amounts of money was flowing from Councils direct to BLT landlords in the form of extortionate amounts of housing benefits. However, rent caps might have ended the abuse and caused less disruption. Lots of landlords are determined to indulge in a stand-off with Councils, refusing to drop their rent and believing that if they get rid of their HB tenant, they'll soon replace them with a private one who can afford the same rent and will put up with the same conditions. I think they're in for a hell of a shock, but the human cost to tenants in the meantime is immense.

[Viviennemary]

In another thread it said that Camden Council had denied that they would be moving anybody 'up North'. (Wherever that strange awful place might be) Shock horror. The amount of money you have dictates where you live. For most of us in any case. Can we all choose where we live and be subsidised by the state. Till this opportunity is available to everyone it remains essentially unfair.

[Floggingmolly]

That's it in a nutshell, Vivienne

[Charmingbaker]

Catkin - completely agree with your point. There is a bubble that needs to be burst. As long as the government feed into the demand for private rentals by paying the high rental costs out of all our taxes, rents are going to stay high for everyone. This doesn't just affect those who rent, we all contribute to the tax system which pays the housing benefit, so we are in effect all giving money to private landlords.

[tallulah]

I'm a hated civil servant. Thanks to cuts brought about by the last Govt my office was closed down, as were about another 300 across the country. I had the choice of trying to find another CS job beforehand, or wait for redundancy. I found another job but it was in a different area. We had to sell up, leave 2 of our teenage children behind and move to the other side of the country.

We are in a smaller house, with higher bills and a huge mortgage. Our DD would have got a place at an outstanding school 2 mins walk from our old house. Instead she is at a school a good 20 mins walk away where 40% are on FSM. We now have loads of debt because the whole move cost a fortune (and no help from anywhere). Plus we had to move away from the ILs and our other support network.

Where I work now our situation isn't unusual. They have moved people from all across the country to our office and lots have had to move house. Some may have had financial help but they've still had to tear up roots. It is a fact of life.

[morethanpotatoprints]

Tallulah.

You had a choice, these people don't have choices and jobs to go to. You seem to have struggled a great deal and be worse off. We live in a strange world where the mentality is it didn't work well for us so you should have to put up with it too.
I hope your job doesn't require demonstrating empathy.

[Floggingmolly]

What choice did Tallulah have?

[Floggingmolly]

Oh right, I've got it. Ask somebody else to pay the rent.

[morethanpotatoprints]

The choice to seek other work maybe?

[Viviennemary]

We live in a very strange country where only the poorest can afford to rent in certain areas. As I said before until the opportunity is there for everyone the system is insane.

[Floggingmolly]

So why don't "these people" you mention have the same choice? If they were all to seek other work (after all, if Tallulah should have done it...) then the question of who funds the bill might not have arisen in the first place.
Your arguement makes no sense.

[frustratedworkingmum]

very often "these people" through no fault of their own, are uneducated and wouldn't even have the "choice" of moving to a different job in another area. "these people" might have mild learning difficulties that mean that they can only manage a menial job. "these people" just might not have had the opportunity to get qualiications that enable them to be able to relocate. I love this attitude of "just get another job then" it makes me laugh. I am highly qualified and after my DD started school i started looking for a job, ANY job, both those that used my qualification and those that didn't. It took me four years of looking, pushing me into a depression, before i found a cleaning job, I now work on a sessional contract in a field i'm qualified for. I hate it though but i daren't leave for fear it will be a further four years before im able to find work again. If i struggled, how are people with little or no education supposed to "just get another job" like its the easiest thing in the world. Being long term unemployed is a scourge and very easy to say "oh just get another job, second job" or relocate when many people just don't have that choice.

The point is being missed over and over again - this is an issue that has arisen because of an out of control housing market and astronomical rents. I was entertaining myself one night looking at "property porn" and DP and I were incredulous at the cost of a flat in some parts of london and i woudnt live there if you paid me!!

[21march]

Several of my immediate neighbours are living in social housing, presumably in receipt of benefits and capped rents. DH and I pay £36,000 a year to rent this house from our own pockets, and our rent is just about to rise 5%.


We also have zero family support - our parents live 200 miles away. We had to move to London because we had a work ethic. I grew up in Knowsley where living on the state is a way of life, but my parents are immigrants and I was brought up with better values.

The culture of entitlement amongst the "poor" of this country makes me sick to my stomach. Suck it up, especially if you're living at other people's expense. Move to Knowsley, your £500 HB a week will rent you a house on Lord Derby's estate.

[morethanpotatoprints]

I can't believe there is such support for social cleansing which is what this is about.
OMG some threads never cease to amaze me, there are some really horrible nasty uncaring people in the world today.
What messages are we sending our children?

[Viviennemary]

The message we should be sending out is that there is no such thing as a free ride or entitlement to a certain lifestyle subsidised by other people's taxes. What on earth is this nonsense social cleansing about. The rest of us have to live according to our means. Why are people in Camden any different. Nobody seems to know the answer to that.

[Auntmaud]

I object absolutely, to those who don't work enjoying living in property the vast majority of those IN work can't afford.

It's that simple.

[alemci]

BOOH as Tallulah commented working people have to move away. My BIL moved to another part of the country so that him and my DS could have a larger house to start a family because they couldn't afford to do this in London and buy a larger property. His job is ok but he could be made redundant and they have just had another baby. Perhaps my DS would like to be near my mum for support.

Seems people put the cart before the horse because of generous welfare and have DC first without thinking about how to support them and rely on taxpayers.

I know every case is individual but no one cares if people who aren't on HB have to leave the area etc and can't afford to live there.

[MrsSalvoMontalbano]

you could ask, what message is a 'single mother of four' is sending to her children by whining that she can't choose where to live free of charge - that's four people getting very skewed values.