Israel has bombed Syria

[NicholasTeakozy]

According to Channel4 News either an aircraft or drone has 'hit a facility' in Syria.

Are they trying to start WW3?

[Moominsarehippos]

Oh shit. I am going to hide under the bed now. Bullies, sanctimonious bullies.

[Clytaemnestra]

Equally, I don't for a minute think Israel is bothered about the Syrians either. This wasn't an altruistic bombing (if it happened) designed to save innocent little Syrian children, it was to destroy a perceived threat to Israel.

It is possible to utterly disagree with Israeli policies, think the treatment of the Palestinians is disgusting and yet not be anti-Semitic. Shutting down all argument by saying it's because people hate Jews is counter productive.

[Thisisaeuphemism]

To a certain extent I agree with you, clyt. I don't like Netanyahu either.

However, you must have noticed that hundreds died in egypt again this week, thousands have been brutally murdered in syria, in Saudi, they have the most repressive regime imaginable, in Iran they stone adulterous women to death, yet the thing that most galvanises the British is Israel and Palestinians.

It's not so far fetched to wonder why that is.

[Clytaemnestra]

On the other hand, in this case, if they bombed a convoy of serious military weaponry going to Hezbollah, then in their position I would have done the same. It's not like they haven't gone to war with Syria before, even if Syria does attack them back, I doubt anyone else would get involved, apart from a lot of tutting on the sidelines. Apparently a group of high level emissaries from Israel flew out to Moscow a few days ago, so I doubt this attack came as a massive surprise to the Russians.

[Greensleeves]

I have posted about atrocities in Syria and other Islamic regimes plenty of times

But this thread is about Israel's behaviour, so it's a bit strange to try and make it about something else.

Israel's behaviour is fucking disgusting and shameful. Particularly but not exclusively towards the Palestians. The atrocities have been so flagrant, so disproportionate and so far in defiance of international law/any measure of human decency (white phosphorus, anyone? Cutting refugee families off from their water supply? Bulldozing ancient olive groves fo the sheer hell of it?) that bleating about "Jew-bashing" simply does not wash any more.

Call me a racist, anti-Semitic or whatever else you like. The days of guilting people into accepting Zionist atrocities by calling them Jew-bashers have well and truly gone, I'm afraid. And I know plenty of Jewish (but non-Zionist) people who agree.

[Clytaemnestra]

I don't think people are any more condemning of Israel than of Syria, or of any other country currently in the news.

I think there is also a large element of, if Israel does get into a major conflict, the concern is that we'll all get dragged in (see the ww3 comments). And if you don't agree with Israel's foreign policy and think that their treatment of the Palestinians is disgusting and that they're deliberately aggressive with neighboring countries, then there is a huge amount of resentment that they're making their "self inflicted" problems into our problems. Saudi is a dreadful regime, but it doesn't expect us to approve and get involved. That to me is why I see people getting wound up with Israel.

[Clytaemnestra]

And the is something particularly grating about a country who constantly complains about being persecuted and expects understanding and support, while having absolutely no insight into the fact they are persecuting others.

[Thisisaeuphemism]

I genuinely have never seen anything near the amount of rage, at even say, the taliban or Assad, or iran, etc, etc, that i have seen directed at israel.

Greensleeves, I apologise if I missed your threads condemning the disgusting behaviour of so many Arab states.

I find the disproportionate argument interesting - I wonder what the proportionate response is? It is tough when your enemy hides among civilians and wants you not to exist. I don't know what the response should be.

Clyt, You find it 'grating' that a country that has been persecuted has no insight into the fact they are persecuting others? I find it sad that everyone is still trying to wipe them out.

[Clytaemnestra]

I find it sad that they are unable to recognize that their settlements, their abuse of native Palestinians and their aggressive, arrogant rhetoric mean that everyone else will eventually lose all sympathy with them. And I find it grating that they expect to be treated as a blameless innocent victim in all of it, and blame anti-Semitism, rather than actually wondering if maybe there might just be a bit of a point to why all their allies are becoming sick of them.

Do you think people who object to the IRA are anti-Catholic? And are objecting to their campaign because they hate Catholics?

[Thisisaeuphemism]

No, no, not at all, and I certainly don't think all criticism of Israel comes down to anti- semitism, of course not.

And yet, and yet, something about the way the British ie. many of my friends, really get in an absolute fury over Israel that they do not seem to about any other countries that really are behaving far far worse, and for much less provocation, and with far worse rights for women etc, etc really mystifies me.

I suppose I can't understand why people don't hold the rest of the world - and particularily the arab states in the same area - to the same standard that they condemn Israel for failing to meet.

[Clytaemnestra]

I suspect, for the most part because their behavior affects us directly in a way which other middle eastern states don't. If Libya kicks off against Syria, we'll all be very sad about the atrocities, but we won't really CARE. In the same way Syria is a tragedy at a remote level, but doesn't actually have any impact on our day to day lives, so for the most part we're very sad about it but it doesn't keep is up at night with worry.

There is a massive fear, however well grounded it might be or not, that Israel will drag the US and Europe into a war and Russia and/or China will take the other side and nuclear weapons will start being thrown. That is the kind of thing that keeps people up at night. So they resent Israel for potentially putting them in this position. Israel is also an ungrateful ally, their diplomacy comes across as all take and no give. They bomb who they like, ignore diplomacy apparently when they feel like it, expand the settlements in retaliation for perceived diplomatic slights and generally seem to be deliberately objectionable. If foreign policy it criticized it is blamed on anti-Semitism, and that makes people really angry. Combine this with their habit of taking the moral high ground when they have no right to it anymore, and blaming everyone else for all their issues, I can see why Israel does inspire more anger. They don't behave any worse in the things they do on the ground, but they make it our problem too, don't accept any responsibility for anything and give us nothing in return.

[littleducks]

I think Clytaemnestra is right, it seems closer to 'home' when Israel is involved

[Monty27]

[wintertimeisfun]

i think clytaemnestra has a good point and fwiw i am a jew. sometimes i get somewhat angry with israel, one of the reasons is because i as a jew am in the firing line with anti jewish sentiment as alot of people club israel and jews in one bag.

[Thisisaeuphemism]

Ooh, I wonder what phonem said.

(I can just imagine.)

Sorry I didn't reply to your thoughtful analysis earlier, clyt. i do intellectually agree with some aspects of what you say, yet in my heart I still just don't get it.

I suppose I look at the world through a feminist prism - and I see every country in the Middle East (except for one) engaged in oppression of women. It seems that no doubt Egypt soon will be going further that way, and when Palestinians do get a fully functioning state -which I hope they do - then we will see the women struggle even more there too.

I just can't understand why Western women are so unengaged with that and will instead support some of those "We are all Hezbollah now" who would take away all women's rights.

[Clytaemnestra]

I think there is a big difference from being against the treatment of the Palestinians and pro Hezbollah!

The logical conclusion to what you're saying is that is better to keep ALL Palestinians oppressed than let them self determine their own government in case the one they end up with oppresses women. I would agree that it's a possibility, however all the Palestinian women that I have ever seen interviewed or featured on news articles, even those suffering from oppression from Palestine men, are pretty clear they'd like Israel to stop killing them and to have their own country as a priority. I remember watching a news story on a young Palestine woman who had taken over her father's fishing business and was having problems with the other (male) fishermen as she had no husband. She wanted Palestine to be free, and I'm pretty sure she had her eyes open about how her society would be. I wouldn't take that right away from her.

Israel is streets ahead on equality. That doesn't mean they deserve a pass when they poison a village's well though, or bomb a hospital.

[Writehand]

I've been involved in a news story about Israel. I was amazed at the nastiness. There is a very well-organised and aggressive lobby in the UK which defends Israel regardless of its conduct. If anything appears in the media that they don't like you get hell in a handcart from these guys.

There are also a lot of Jewish people in this country who feel quite differently, and hate what Israel is doing. They are not as well-organised, though, and less vitriolic in their speech -- at least that was my experience.

The thing that really gets me is people describing anti-Israeli feeling as anti-Semitic. It ain't. It it were then lots & lots of Jewish people are guilty of it.

I think many of us are scared of the tension between Israel and Iran. Any Israeli involvement in Syria is likely to worsen that.

[Thisisaeuphemism]

Surely the logical conclusion to what I'm saying is that Palestine should be a free state as soon as possible.

Yes, the pro-Israel news lobby is probably nasty and aggressive. Not as aggressive, mind, as say the Iranian or pakistani govt or those who say cartoonist and film makers and writers must die, and then actually execute them, but I see what you are saying.

It is tricky: Israel is the only jewish state of course, so i can see it's difficult to disentangle Judaism from Israel and also being pro Israel but not pro new settlements. Plenty of people manage it but plenty of people don't, eg that liberal mp just last week. giles coren wrote about it well this weekend I thought.

[Writehand]

I'd agree that Palestine needs to be a free state as soon as possible. I can understand that Israel feels surrounded by enemies, but I think it would not only clarify and settle things, but that Israel would be in a much stronger position if it stopped breaching UN and human rights issues and behaved in a mature and equitable way towards the Palestinians.

I personally feel the creation of the state of Israel was a huge mistake, but it's done now, and we can only work with what is. I can see the world felt that, post-Holocaust, there were amends to be made, but making an essentially religious nation was not a clever idea, and it's caused no end of problems.

[Thisisaeuphemism]

Well, there we have it.

[Kungfutea]

This reminds me of something I saw going around FB during the Gaza fighting a few months back where two Syrian fighters, despairing at the way the world isn't responding to all the atrocities and massacres occurring there, suggest that Israel kill a few of them - and then people might start to notice.

Legitimate criticism of Israel is fine but the vitriol and vilification in what is a very complex situation is really rather frightening.

Writehand - many Israelis also believe that the creation of a Palestinian state would also be a huge mistake (and I'd agree under current circumstances - look at what happened after Israel withdrew from Gaza!). And since you're opposed to 'essentially religious' nations, I assume you'd apply that principle to the UK as well since the UK is defined as a 'Christian nation'? So maybe the creation of the UK was a huge mistake? You also clearly have no idea of the history of Israel and the Jewish people and the Zionist movement within that since Israel did not suddenly appear overnight as a make-up gift for the slaughter of six million.

[Saski]

The Israel and UK comparison is flawed. The UK wasn't created as a Christian homeland - it evolved as a Christian nation. Israel was created for Jews from all over Europe, displacing its existing inhabitants from the outset.

Important to remember that the slaughter of six million was at the hands of the Europeans - not the Palestinians. Why is the remediation theirs to pay?

Israel is surrounded by enemies of its own making. Withdrawing from the occupied territories would be a great step towards peace.

[Kungfutea]

That's absolutely not true and incorrect, Saski.

1. The existing inhabitants were not 'displaced' due to Zionism. In fact, there could have already been a Palestine (or some version of it since Palestinian natinal identity is a rather modern phenomenon) a long time ago if they'd have been a bit more sensible.
   
   
2. Israel was not 'created' for Jews from all over Europe. Where do you get this stuff from? It was the Jewish ancestral homeland for which the Jews were expelled by the Romans in 70 CE and finally in 135 CE but there has always been a Jewish presence in Israel and Jews have always turned to Israel. Jews are a people as well as a religion. It's comparable to the Kurds wanting a Kurdistan.
   
   
3. Israel is not 'remediation' or punishment for the holocaust. If it were, why not give the Zionists a nice piece of Germany? The Zionist movement started long before the second world war. The holocaust simply added impetus to the necessity of a Jewish homeland.
   
   
4. Israel is surrounded by enemies who reject any Jewish presence in the Middle East. Just to remind you, what were the 'three nos' of Khartoum about exactly? Who rejected the Peel partition plan? Who rejected the UN partition plan? Who tried to destroy Israel in 1948? Who tried to destroy Israel in 1967? Who tried to destroy Israel in 1973? I'm not saying Israel is blameless but to accuse Israel of having enemies of its own making just by the pure fact of its existence is rather disingenuous. Withdrawing from the West Bank would be good in an ideal world but what would happen if Israel did? Look at Gaza! Israel withdrew from Gaza and Sderot and Ashkelon were in the firing line. Israel withdraws from the West Bank, as things stand at the moment, and you'll have most of Israel within range of the kassam missiles. No thank you! Israel's first responsibility is to its own citizens.

[Kungfutea]

Here you go, Saski:

The three No's of Khartoum (Sept 1967):

1. No peace with Israel
   
2. No recognition of Israel
   
3. No negotiations with Israel
   
   Does that seem reasonable to you? That's what Israel is dealing with. But all Israel's fault? Right?
   
   However, when Sadat did make overtures to Israel, he got ALL of the Sinai back in return for a peace treaty (and was then murdered for the privilege). How about a bit of recognition for that?
   
   If the Arabs would have admitted that they can't wipe Israel out in 1967 and actually sat down and negotiated, they'd have got all of the West Bank and Gaza. The settler movement only began later and on a small scale. Now it's all one big mess :(