My feed
Premium

Please
or
to access all these features

News

Assange - foreign office threaten to arrest him

320 replies

Empusa · 16/08/2012 00:35

Article here

They are talking about revoking the Ecuadorian embassy's diplomatic immunity in order to enter the embassy.

Wonder if they will actually do so?

OP posts:
Report
TheDoctrineOfEnnis · 16/08/2012 23:28

I think all we can say about the Swedish arrest warrant is that it went through their courts and the extradition is that it went through our courts and both were approved - so due process has been observed, even if not all practitioners would have done it that way.

Report
TheDoctrineOfEnnis · 16/08/2012 23:34

The US soldier I mentioned up thread was Bradley Manning. Sorry for forgetting his name.

Report
SarahBumBarer · 16/08/2012 23:49

Hester, proportionally speaking the US has approved more UK extradition requests than the UK has approved US extradition requests.

Report
HesterBurnitall · 17/08/2012 00:19

The advent of cyber crime doesn't automatically give countries the right to prosecute outside their borders. China has strict online censorship laws which are prosecuted vigorously, if you break those laws, say you posted something about the situation in Tibet which they considered to be seditious and inflamatory, should the Chinese government have the right to pursue a prosecution against you?

Wikileaks published information acquired from many different countries and sources. Does the US have a greater right to prosecute than India or Colombia?

Are US laws more meaningful or important than Indonesian laws? Should the right to prevent Indonesian law being rendered meaningless result in Indonesia being able to prosecute transgressions that occur in France? Say the Saudi regime felt that work done from the London office of Amnesty International broke domestic Saudi laws, should the AI staff be vulnerable to prosecution?

National sovereignty should not be abandoned lightly and without proper scrutiny and democratic participation.

The extradition to Sweden is legal and straightforward, there is sufficient evidence that Julan Assange has a case to answer regarding allegations that he broke Swedish laws in Sweden.

Report
HesterBurnitall · 17/08/2012 00:23

Sarah, yes, for American citizens who have allegedly committed crimes in the UK. Extradition isn't the issue, sovereignty is. It's not acceptable for one country to be able to apply its laws globally without regard for jurisdiction. Either every country has that right, or no country does.

Report
TheDoctrineOfEnnis · 17/08/2012 07:23
Report
Empusa · 17/08/2012 09:47

Just seen this comment from a solicitor friend of DH's

"BTW, for those wondering why the Swedes cannot interview him over here: Under Swedish law a person can only be interviewed under caution at an authorised location (it's the same here actually, you can generally only be interviewed in a designated police station) so he has to attend a Swedish nick."

OP posts:
Report
MrsGuyOfGisbourne · 17/08/2012 10:01

In thst case, the EAW needs to be reviewed. Why on earth should people be obliged to go to a foriegn country simply for questioning? A different matter if they have been charged wth an offence, but not simply for questioning.

Report
ButHeNeverDid · 17/08/2012 10:42

What I don't understand is whether there is any greater reason for him to fear being extradited from Sweden to the US than from the UK.

If not, then it seems that he simply trying to avoid the Swedsh allegations.

Report
NovackNGood · 17/08/2012 10:51

It ha nothing to do with China or saying somethign against another countries politics and so bringing up the Tibet and China stuff is just nonsensical. What China does in Tibet is China's business as is what the US does in Portland or the UK does outside St. Pauls. The aspergers man entered a computer system based in another country and his lawyers even admit he could be tried int theUK for the crime. Even the EU ays he should go to the US. If his family are so worried about him then they can accompany him for goodness sake..

Assange is accused of serious sexual assualts in Sweden. That is a different issue to whatever people think of his wiki stuff. You have to laugh at the idiocracy of his supporters of his who seem to think that rape and violence accusations against him that have come with substantiated evidence is fine right on and good but if he published that about a UK or US soldier people would be calling for the soldiers arrest.

Ecuador is just trying to appear big on the international stage because it found out through wikinonsense that the US ambassador the Ecuador thought the it was a disorganised country. Goodness sake it's Embassy is little more than a flat.

Report
EldritchCleavage · 17/08/2012 10:55

Ecuador is not on the moral high ground here: it is a country that has not respected human rights or freedom of speech. The defence of Assange is about populist and opportunistic US-baiting rather than any coherent moral position.

Report
NovackNGood · 17/08/2012 11:01

Exactly straight from human rights watch website...

Freedom of Expression

The Ecuadorean criminal code includes provisions criminalizing ?desacato,? under which anyone who ?offends? the president or other government authorities may receive a prison sentence of up to three months (for offending officials), and up to two years (for offending the president). In addition, anyone who commits libel against public officials may be subject to a prison sentence of up to three years. A new criminal code presented by the government to the National Assembly in October 2011 does not include the crime of desacato, but if approved would still mandate prison sentences of up to three years for those who defame public authorities.

Since President Correa filed a criminal defamation suit in 2007 against the director of the newspaper La Hora, several local and government authorities have initiated criminal proceedings against journalists and media owners accusing them of defamation. According to the Fundación Andina para la Observación y Estudio de Medios (Fundamedios), a nongovernmental organization that focuses on free expression in Ecuador, six journalists have been convicted for defamation since 2008, and at least 10 others are under criminal investigation.


Seems to me that if Assange was an Ecuadorian he would haev bent he first in Jail. You see Assange is not about opening governments to scrutiny but all about self promotion and saving his own skin as surely he knows if he violated those different woman on different occasions or notso he knows the chance of his guilt or innocence being proven more than any.

Report
niceguy2 · 17/08/2012 11:03

I am very uncomfortable about the move towards the US, and it is only the US, being facilitated to pursue and extradite people who are citizens and residents of another country, have not broken the law in that country and have not broken US law in the US.

I think this pretty much summarises my discomfort on this whole topic. If you remove the US angle then I'd be 100% convinced that Assange should be extradited to Sweden.

Report
EldritchCleavage · 17/08/2012 11:10

But since the extradition to the US risk is the same here as it is in Sweden, why does it matter whether he is in the UK or in Sweden? I know he's claimed that Sweden will send him on to the US, but there seems little factual basis for that assertion. I just don't see that it is a meritorious argument against going to Sweden.

Report
HesterBurnitall · 17/08/2012 12:12

I agree Eldritch, there is no good argument that I can see against extradition to Sweden.

Thanks for labeling my point nonsensical, though the question i was asking is completely unconnected to your 'What China does in Tibet is China's business" interpretation.

Report
Empusa · 17/08/2012 12:12

Quite Eldritch, I did read somewhere that the UK is actually more likely to extradite him to the US than Sweden. So that argument doesn't stand up at all.

OP posts:
Report
HesterBurnitall · 17/08/2012 12:12

The second part of my post was to Novack.

Report
Kladdkaka · 17/08/2012 13:24

Hej allihopa, sverige samtal (Hello everyone, Sweden calling) [waves]

Assange and his legal team are playing the media like a good'un. They know full well the legal processes in Sweden and are exploiting them something chronic to make it look like there is something sinister going on. Like offering to be interviewed in the UK and then in the embassy. He has Swedish lawyers on his team too, he knows the Swedish legal system is such that this can't happen. That's why the offer is made, knowing the Swedes can't accept it. Sneaky little toad that he is.

The most serious charge he is facing is rape. Rape with it's most basic definition. The statement given to the police by the victim says that he pinned her down by her arms, she tried to stop him having sex with her by squeezing her legs together and twisting her hips but he forced her legs apart and penetrated her, even though she was on the verge of tears and in the end she 'just wanted to get it over with'.

His current legal status in Sweden is häktad i frånvaro or 'detained in absence'. This means that the evidence has been presented to a court who have ruled there is sufficient evidence to detain and charge him.

Swedish law does not follow the same principals as UK law. UK law is adversarial, the prosecutor vs the accused, and so the accused has no obligation to help the other side. The Swedish system is inquisitorial, an enquiry to get to the truth, the accused is legally obliged to assist in the investigation.

So what happens is that the police investigate, collect evidence and interview everyone involved. This can be done in another country if necessay, just like with many other legal systems. This has been done and Assange has been interviewed by the police (I have full copies of all the interviews if anyone wants them). This part of the process is pretty much the same as the UK.

The completed file of evidence is then given to the prosecutor to decide whether the case can be taken further. This is where the systems diverge because of it being an inquisitorial system.

The prosecutor carries out a second 'interview'. This is where the full evidence is laid out, the charges are laid out, the accused has a final chance to respond with new evidence and formal indictment takes place. This step in the process does not exist in the UK, but it's closest relative would be the formal reading out of charges in court and the entering a plea of guilty or not guilty. As you can see from the UK sort of equivalent, that would never happen outside of the country. Assange's team know this, which is why they can make empty offers to be 'interviewed' in another country and be seen as the good guys.

Assange had no fears about being extradicted to face a death sentence while in Sweden. He attended the first stage police interview without crying. Surprise, surprise, he had business outside of Sweden immediately after hearing that the prosecutor was taking the case forward to the second 'interview'. He knew full well that his goose was cooked. He is trying to evade just, that's all.

As for the extradition nonsense. The UK has an extradition treaty with the US, Sweden doesn't. If that was his genuine fear he would be better off in Sweden. Plus the terms of the EAW mean that Sweden cannot extradict him to the US without prior agreement from the UK.

As for the assurance that he won't be extradicted, that is plea bargaining and is unlawful in the Sweden. Again his team will know that, so they are publicly requesting something they know full well can never happen to create a smoke screen for a rapist trying to escape justice.

Report
edam · 17/08/2012 13:28

Agree with Eldritch, it makes no difference to the likelihood of extradition whether he's here or in Sweden.

But on the separate issue of the US seeking to extend its jurisdiction beyond US territory, that is indeed worrying and plain wrong. Our courts should not be collaborating with the US in this manner.

Report
edam · 17/08/2012 13:32

Crosspost with Klad - thanks for that informative post, so he's actually safer from extradition to the US in Sweden? As I suspected, he's just making stuff up in order to escape justice in Sweden. Lying little self-righteous hypocrite.

Report
Empusa · 17/08/2012 13:39

Klad Thank you for that, I'd read snippets of info saying what you said, but nothing that explains it so well!

OP posts:
Report
MooncupGoddess · 17/08/2012 13:42

Great post Kladdkaka. What a ghastly man he is.

Report

Don’t want to miss threads like this?

Weekly

Sign up to our weekly round up and get all the best threads sent straight to your inbox!

Log in to update your newsletter preferences.

You've subscribed!

Empusa · 17/08/2012 13:43

Kald Would it be ok if I copied your post to explain to some fuckwits people on Twitter?

OP posts:
Report
Empusa · 17/08/2012 13:43

Or Facebook even, not Twitter.

OP posts:
Report
ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 17/08/2012 13:50

Thanks Klad that has cleared a lot of things up for me :)

Report
Please create an account

To comment on this thread you need to create a Mumsnet account.