The Dorries amendment will be a free vote - keep the pressure on

[WilsonFrickett]

Lots of press today saying that the govt has decided to vote against ND's ridiculous amendment. While this is good news, it will still be a free vote, with individual MPs able to vote as they please. If you were thinking about emailing your MP on this issue please still do so - the result isn't a foregone conclusion.

From the Guardian article:

...a combination of the unpredictable intake of new Tory MPs, split between social conservatives and modernisers, the number of Roman Catholic Labour MPs, and the high degree of nuance of the amendment make it extremely unclear which way the vote will go.

www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/aug/31/downing-street-uturn-abortion-proposals

[limitedperiodonly]

Just read yours scrambled. Nice to know your MP takes his/her job seriously.

[limitedperiodonly]

So much to say and so little time to say it if I want to get any work done today.

Anyway kelly2000 I doubt your MP was listening to the Today programme interview with Nadine Dorries just before the amendment debate. David Steel was not debating with her but was speaking about her amendment immediately after her interview.

He's a mild, calm man but it was clear that he did not agree with her and regarded her and others like her with contempt.

I wish people like your MP would stop trotting out that 'even David Steel never intended, blah, blah' line.

But that would put your MP in danger of doing some serious analysis of the facts and challenging his own prejudices and that's a bit too much like hard work.

I never like to be rude but this time I think 'ignorant, complacent arse' covers it.

[kelly2000]

Here is the reply I got from my tory mp

^"I thank you for your comments regarding the NHS debate and the amendments regarding abortion which were drafted by Rt Hon Frank Field MP and Nadine Dorries MP. As you will have seen the amendments were roundly defeated on the floor of the House by some 250 votes.

I tend to vote fairly conservatively on matters regarding abortion and have in the past voted to require women seeking a termination to have counselling before making their decision. I have also voted for the time limit for legal abortion to be reduced from 24 to 21 weeks.

I have read through the debate which preceded the Abortion Act 1967 and it was clear that most parliamentarians wanted abortion to be reserved for the most desperate and vulnerable. Yet more than forty years since that law came into place, we now see advertisements inviting women to 'Walk In. Walk Out' for lunchtime terminations. In essence we have 'abortion on demand' in direct contrast to what was intended when the law was changed.

I am by no means against abortion or indeed lament the introduction of that Act back in 1967. Naturally for most, an abortion remains a deeply difficult personal decision that can cause lasting emotional trauma. But Lord Steel, the architect of that Act, has himself admitted that he never anticipated 'anything like' the current number of terminations and said that 'parliament never intended the law to be used in that way'.

I abstained on Wednesday's division because of the substantial additional burden that would have been placed on local authorities had the chosen amendment been passed."^

[MyGoldfishIsEvil]

Scrambled I heart your MP too, that is a great response.

[WilsonFrickett]

I have to admit, I don't really like my MP's politics but he does have a lot of common sense. Great response from yours Scrambled. Kelly ! You would really like to think that MPs wouldn't just, I dunno, make things up, wouldn't you!

[ScrambledSmegs]

Blimey, kelly. I would love to know where your MP is getting his information from! And why should only 'vulnerable, desperate' women be allowed to have abortions? What about the strong, confident women who for various personal reasons feel unable to have a baby at this time?! . And as for not voting - how feeble.

On re-reading my email I'm struck once again by how much I respect my MP. On this and most other issues I've been in total agreement with him. I heart him!

[kelly2000]

My MP replied after the vote saying he did not vote for or against simply because he did not want an extra strain on the NHS. he also went on about how women could get abortions too easily, that there were advertisements telling woman they can get lunchtime abortions (really where?) and this is not what was intended, and that only vunerable, desperate women were meant to be allowed to have abortions.

i will copy and paste the full text later.

[ScrambledSmegs]

I realise this thread has probably faded away, but has anyone received a response from their MP yet? I did and if I could 'like' his email, I would! This is it:

Thanks for your email about the proposed amendment to the Health Bill to change abortion counselling arrangements tabled by Nadine Dorries and Frank Field.

You are no doubt aware that the amendment was debated on Wednesday and forced to a vote. I voted against and I am pleased to say that it was defeated by an overwhelming majority of 250.

There was no case for this amendment. The law on abortion and the guidance of the British Medical Association and the Royal Colleges is sound. The optional abortion counselling offered at clinics by approved counsellors is impartial. The system respects and trusts women to reach their own decision.

The argument for the amendment was based on purely anecdotal evidence. It was designed to obscure what, in truth, was an ugly attempt to cut abortions by opening the door to organisations ideologically opposed. Such organisations are not impartial. They misinform and seek to dissuade women from accessing abortion services.

I have always supported a woman?s right to choose, and you can rest assured that I will to continue to defend this principle in the House.

[WilsonFrickett]

Watch out Ceaser, it gets addictive. Before you know it you'll be on your MP's Christmas card list

[caesar04]

Sorry to hear the stories on this thread of unsupportive and unhelpful HCPs.

I have lurked on this thread and did email my MP. I got a letter from her this morning saying she voted against the amendments. She also put this

"Unfortunately, Nadine Dorries spoke on the matter for 58 minutes leaing no time for sufficient debate around the issue. The amendment was defeated .... reflecting the view that is held not only across the House of Commons but more widely across the country"

Am going to watch footage now.

Thank you to the OP and others for raising awareness of this issue, thats the first time I have ever written to my MP

[sfxmum]

megfox that is so sad, I can't imagine that treating you like that would make you more likely to keep the pregnancy, and you were a responsible adult
I am so sorry but so pleased as well you won out in the end

[sieglinde]

Megfox, that's an incredibly sad story. Agree with all who have said that those against abortion should really be much more helpful, loving and compassionate to the women concerned!!!! Am now going to strike a moral note.... I can't believe any true Xtian would approve of the acts you describe.

[Megfox]

From all I've heard of this proposed amendment by this MP, it would seem that she's taking the line that any woman considering abortion must be given counselling.
After hearing her speak, I get the impression that she believes that abortion is EASY to gain. I quote her words refering to an, 'abortion conveyer belt.'
I found myself faced with an unplanned pregnancy in 1992. I'd been dumped by my husband, left with nought but unpaid bills and a 17-year-old son. I didn't know I was pregnant until I was in my twentieth week.
I consulted my then GP, who refered me to a consultant at the local hospital.
I was in a state of total shock and disbelief.
The consultant had me go through all manner of tests -culminating in an ultrasound to determine the actual stage of my pregnancy. I KNEW when the conception had happened - it being the only occasion on which I'd had sex after my husband ran off - and using a condom......But this woman paid no heed either to my assertation of the date of conception, or of my dire financial straits.
She refused a termination point-blank and, when I burst into tears, threatened to call security and have me escorted from the hospital.....!
She told me in the coldest, cruellest manner, that she disliked my, 'type,' and that I needed psychiatric help in order to, 'stop blaming an innocent baby,' for all my bitterness.
Back to see my GP, I learned that she'd phoned him and suggested that I be offered a place in a psychiatric unit!
When I declined, on the grounds that distress over an unplanned pregnancy in my circumstances and at the age of thirty-five, was NOT a matter for referal to a psychiatric unit, he just shrugged and told me I'd have to, 'get on with it, then.'
I immediately changed GPs and met with a wholly sympathetic response.
Later, I learned that the first GP and the consultant were both Roman Catholic and thus opposed to abortion.

At no time was I offered any form of counselling.

Even when I explored putting the child up for adoption, I had no form of emotional assistance.
I kept that baby, who's now nineteen and the sunshine in my life.
But my point is that this MP, Nadine Whatever, is WRONG in her assertion that abortion is freely available and entered into lightly.
I suggest that she's never been in that nightmare situiation of facing an unplanned pregnancy and being given NO guidance or support whatsoever......

[NarkyPuffinLovesDiane]

Independent of what? If you feel that the counselling was sub par then complain.

[aliceliddell]

limitedperiod your point about boob jobs etc is a good one which I was going to make myself. Of course the eejit Dorries isn't interested in that.

[sieglinde]

Higgle, glad you were happy with the decision, but very sorry you had such miserable experiences. alas, as said, because time is a factor and because feelings often run riot, many counsellors find it hard to hold back enough to allow the woman to decide for herself and act only to facilitate that.

[higgle]

I should add that I have remained comfortable with my decision to terminate the pregnancy, and I feel that it was right to consider the interests of the whole family. I came to my decision by looking at my own feelings and an analysis of the two lots of counselling, although as I had had a series of miscarriages before my second son was born I also considered that even if I carried on with the pregnancy it might not continue.

[higgle]

I felt very much that any decision I made should take the interests of my whole family into account, and indeed the decision I eventually made - to terminate - was because I felt this was best for my DH and children. BPAS put forward various scenarios for me to consider that were totally unrelated to my home circumstances - saying I wouldn't get any help with the baby, I would be miserable and depressed etc. etc. Counsellors ( and I now have a counselling qualification myself) do help people make decisions, but by facilitating them coming to their own conclusions. I have had counselling twice myself and found the counsellors very impartial and supportive. With the pregnancy I felt BPAS were simply going through the motions with and the pro life group - just wanted me to keep the baby at any cost to me or my family. If a woman is considering a termination and makes a decision she is not comfortable with later on then there can be serious repercussions. It is very important that the counselling is independent.

[sieglinde]

I've done unwanted pregnancy counselling, kelly2000, and it's actually moderately difficult to keep to the regulations you suggest because in the end a decision must be made on the future of the pregnancy, and often made quite quickly. Even supportive noises can come across as a wish to push aside the interests of others, as Higgle found.

What you really need is time, and it's what you don't have. Especially you don't have it if the time allowed for counselling is mandated - in Oxford at one point it was 5 minutes.....

This is not said in support of Dorries' flailing efforts - poor woman, because Cameron was a great big sexist twunt to her however mcuh I think she's an idjit - because clearly in an ideal world you'd have - say - a day to talk things through with a trained counsellor. But in a world where the NHS can't really afford some cancer drugs this seems an unlikely scenario.

[kelly2000]

Higgle, as far as I am aware in the Uk counsellors are not allowed to help someone make a decision, and give them advice as to how a certain decison would affect them. A counsellor could nto and should not be telling you how your family might feel.

[limitedperiodonly]

higgle in your scenario the bank could not advise the woman because they stand to make money out of the arrangement.

BPAS and Marie Stopes do not. The funding they receive covers their costs.

If you have any operation the hospital is required to obtain your informed consent. The advice on the risk of surgery is usually done by one of the surgical team - that was the case in my NHS operation. He had no vested interest in whether I had the surgery or not so presumably that's why it's not seen as a problem.

However, if it had been a private cosmetic procedure the surgeon obtaining informed consent would have a vested interest. Yet I'm not aware that there is a call for independent counselling for women contemplating boob jobs even though any surgery carries risks of complications including death.

Perhaps Nadine Dorries could make that her next campaign.

I'm sorry that you were not happy with the service you received at BPAS or the pro-life group.

[NarkyPuffinLovesDiane]

The counselling you had from BPAS actually sounds very good BTW. The decision to abort is one that you have to live with so you should put yourself first. Doing what you think is best for other people is not likely to result in a decision that is easy to live with.

[NarkyPuffinLovesDiane]

If you felt the counselling provided was inadequate in some way then you needed to tell them.

The example you give of financial and legal advice is not at all comparable. It suggests that there is some conflict of interest in the counselling offered by BPAS. The idea that because they provide abortion services they are somehow incapable of providing balanced counselling is ridiculous.

[sfxmum]

higgle I am sorry for your experience but in all fairness having a session without time constrains would be impossible really unless you were paying for it, as hard as it is it feels what you needed was a very good non judgemental friend, as do all of us in such circunstances

[higgle]

Has anyone mentioned independent advice in other sectors?

If a woman was intending to agree to her partner taking a loan secured on their property to finance her partner's business it would be unthinkable for her to be advised by the bank intending to make the loan - she is put in contact with an independent solicitor for this purpose. Is human life less precious? The advice must not only be independent it must be seen to be independent

Some years ago I did have a pregnancy terminated in very difficult circumstances, I viewed this as a last resort to protect the welfare of my existing children. I wanted to have access to counselling to explore both options. At BPAS I had a very short session, time limited, and I was aware other people were waiting to be seen. When I explained my circumstances I was met with a "poor you" response and urged to put myself first because no one else would. I was shocked by this as I was quite happy to put my interests last, but wanted to talk through the impact on my husband and family. I also sought some advice from a pro life agency, and there the emphasis was totally on the interests of the baby and lots of emotive language was used. Quite frankly neither met my remit and I would have appreciated the opportunity to see someone who would have impartially looked at all aspects of my predicament and given me space to make my decision.