DD's muteness in social situations

[picnicinthewoods]

I'm looking for some ideas on how to help DD. I hate the word 'shy', but that seems the easiest way to explain her behaviour. She went to playschool from 3-5 years and has since been HE. At playschool they had the same problem & she took the whole of the first year to warm up enough to participate in group work, although she never talked at circle time, she showed and the teacher talked for her.
She is 7 now and I'm getting pretty concerned at her 'shyness'. At home she is bubbly, happy and fun. In HE groups with me there and others she knows well where there aren't too many people she is also fine. However she has now been going to Brownies for a term and hasn't spoken, and she didn't talk at Rainbows for the year previous. She also goes to an HE group without me and rarely speaks. A couple of things have happened that are making me worried. For example rather than speak to one of the grown ups at the HE group to ask to go to the toilet, she wet herself and then went around wet for the rest of the day. She is now 7 and a half & has full control over her bladder.
She also went on a playdate recently and something happened which I don't want to go into, but she wasn't able to tell the person to stop.
I am now concerned about her going places without me but she is fiercely independent and continues to want to go to these things on her own.
So, how do I help her find her voice? How do I help her be more assertive?

[picnicinthewoods]

of course there is no shame in any dx.........unless its wrong:(

[lljkk]

It sounds exactly like selective mutism to me; it's a pretty broad umbrella term, now.

[Ephiny]

I was similar as a child, I actually went through most of primary school almost never speaking - I'd nod or shake my head or point to communicate if I had to. I can't remember exactly why, it just didn't seem something I needed or wanted to do. I used to hate being labelled 'shy' and didn't feel it described me. I wasn't shy. I just didn't feel the need to speak.

As an adult I'm still don't talk a lot, my default is definitely 'not speaking' unless I remind myself otherwise, though I can manage fine when I need to for work etc. It might be more habit than anything at this stage. Either way it hasn't stopped me doing well academically or getting a good job etc.

[MrsTruper]

I am not sure about "shy", sounds like it might be partly plain introversion? ....lots on the web about parenting introverts...... worth a look..

[picnicinthewoods]

Thank you Slangking:)

[SlangKing]

Sorry, Picnic. It takes me a small eternity to thumb these things into my phone so I'm always behind. It's great that you've confirmed how well you and DD communicate. Personally, I think the girl is only gonna go uphill. ALL kids are subjected to preludes to bullying. How they react determines whether the bullying continues/escalates. That your DD is upset by the teasing is natural. The important thing is that she INSISTS on returning to the group. That shows emotional strength and determination. Some kids would be refusing to go back, or crying at the prospect. That you're working with DD is fantastic. You seemed a bit panicky/depressed when 'mildly concerned' seems more appropriate given the positives here. I've forgotten the ratio of non-verbal:verbal communication but it's surprisingly high,, like 75:25 or thereabouts. Whatever the figure, your DD seems to be holding her own. Good luck anyway.

[SlangKing]

My BFF was the same when we were teens. Any room with more than a handful of people and she'd silently blend in with the furniture. She was a looker though and got into modelling for 10 years all over the world. Since she got back you can't shut her up! I think that's the key with a lot of shy/quiet people,,, when they find themselves through luck or design it gives them the confidence to come out of their shells. I also think a lot of miserable/angry adults, prone to jumping on 'hater' bandwagons, either never found themselves or had their dreams/callings thwarted by whatever circumstances. Hence why in threads like this one, where (IMO) there's no huge, obvious problem, I always err on the side of "let people be who they are" - if that makes sense.

[picnicinthewoods]

I need to come back to this tomorrow and read it properly as I'm a bit tired now to think straight. Thank you for the further replies though, all food for thought.
Just to say though, I have never mentioned DD being shy in front of her. I am happy that she talks to me of course, I usually have to bide my time, but she loves to chat to me at night time when she can't sleep & usually this is when this kind of thing comes up. She was upset by the wetting incident & by the other couple of things which have happened, which "could" be called bullying. She does want to talk in these groups, she is not happy not speaking.
I don't think she is a selective mute, but I do think she needs more help in asserting herself, so really that's probably more what I was/am asking. The book links are helpful, I will check them out later, thanks Satin.
Slangking, I think that's an interesting point you have made about communication other than speaking - she misses very little that is for sure!
Of course I have asked her how she feels etc otherwise I probably wouldn't be asking for advice. I think its fine to bounce worries off you guys, that is the point of the forum & it helps to have some other perspectives.
Thank you:)

[SatinSandals]

I agree with you, and with ggirl. I saw someone only the other week that I hadn't seen for nearly 40 years and she ended up saying 'you used to be such a shy thing'! She was right.
You wouldn't recognise my DS now, but he grew naturally in confidence, I didn't label him, or apologise or explain.

[SlangKing]

Thanks, Satin. And NO, you weren't talking rubbish. Labels are rarely of much use, and they're especially bad when they're wrong, as I think maybe the case here. I'm shy in some situations and so avoid them when I can. This girl confronts them like a rhino,, which doesn't say 'shy' to me. She's vocal at home and in small groups,, so not 'mute' either. I'm not saying there's no cause for concern here,, but she is confident and assertive most of the time,, and capable of repelling bullies. She tells mum if she's upset about stuff and she's reported two incidents (that we know of) and NO ongoing upsets. She seems happy/content being the way she is and mum should be proud of that and use their good communication to ask DD if she wants to be more vocal. It's a fine line between encouraging and pressuring somebody out of their comfort zone,,, and it's called a comfort zone for a reason. If the girl is happy there it could be detrimental to interfere.

[ggirl]

My dd was an extremely shy child .
People often commented on how silent she was , I was forever apologising for it..to my shame now.

I decided to stop apologising and accept that she chose to speak when she was confident .
Fast forward ..she is 21 now .
She is doing her 3rd yr abroad in France and loving it. Learning ANOTHER language and is very popular and sociable.
I meet people now who knew her as a little girl and they are amazed at what she is doing now.
The best advice I got was to accept dd for who she was ...a lovely shy girl...and for me to stop worrying.
I'm not belittling your worries..I just want to give you hope that lots of very shy kids grow up to be very vocal.

[SatinSandals]

I think that picnic is in far more danger of ending up with a deeply anxious child if she starts on labels. Much better to listen to SlangKing.

[wasuup3000]

""If left untreated, SM can lead to isolation, low self-esteem and social anxiety disorder. It can persist into adolescence and even adulthood if not tackled.
With diagnosis at a young age and appropriate management, children can successfully overcome this disorder.
SM needs to be recognised early by families and schools so that they can work together to reduce the child’s anxiety. Staff in early years settings and schools are increasingly seeking training so they are ready to provide appropriate support.""

[wasuup3000]

www.facebook.com/groups/347613499222/

www.nhs.uk/conditions/selective-mutism/Pages/Introduction.aspx

[wasuup3000]

www.nhs.uk/conditions/selective-mutism/Pages/Introduction.aspx

www.facebook.com/groups/347613499222/

[SatinSandals]

Diabetic is quite different-it is a medical problem.

[SatinSandals]

Fantastic post SlangKing, what I was trying to say, but put so much better. Very true which is why I don't think my sentence on labels was 'rubbish'. Steer clear of labels!

[SatinSandals]

I was that shy child and I can tell you that a label like that would have crippled me! Luckily my mother didn't use one. There are shy children in every single class in every single school but there are very few selective mutes. Possibly her DD is, we don't know, but the child has so many positives to work on. The label doesn't matter-what does matter is strategies to help. When I came back in this afternoon poor OP was really depressed-how does that help?

[SlangKing]

Like many above, Picnic, I think you need to focus on the positives,,, which are abundant in your posts but it's like you're not seeing the wood for the trees. Firstly - you're worried about her assertiveness when she IS assertive. She's assertive with you,,, to the extent that she insists on returning to social situations with the (potentially) bullying Brownies and whoever was involved in the incident you didn't elaborate on. So, she isn't phased by bullies - so isn't a 'victim' - and the other thing apparently bothers you much more than it bothered her. That she told you about it is a plus as is her confidence in returning to the same/similar situation. She's FINE,, outgoing even,, at home and in small groups,, just quiet in larger/unfamiliar ones. Maybe she just likes to assess her surroundings before jumping in and chooses her friends carefully. I'd suggest that's infinitely preferable to being the opposite. Also worth noting - despite our huge vocabulary, most human communication is achieved by body language/facial expression and gestures. Seemingly, your DD is communicating very effectively whether vocally or not. Only the one incident of bullies trying AND FAILING to intimidate her. They'll quit or move on to an easier victim. If/when she has a problem she tells you - that all parents should be so fortunate. While I understand your concern, I wonder if you and various adults drawing attention to her vocal reluctance are giving her a complex she doesn't need,,, "I'm the shy one." She LIKES socialising,, maybe she's not so much shy as quiet and there's NOTHING wrong with that. There's nothing wrong with your concern either and I realise you've likely not given us a complete picture. That said, we can only work with what you provide and I see a girl who's quiet, confident, and has a good relationship with mum. THAT should be your starting point - if she's happy to attend these groups and her quietness isn't a problem for her, it shouldn't be for you. Before asking GPs and MNers if she has a problem,, ask HER. If she's happy as she is, you might find her biggest problem is any pressure she feels from you to "talk more", when she's communicating very effectively without words.

[ouryve]

I think you want to avoid labels, children live up, or down, to them.

Sorry. This is rubbish. Labelling a child as diabetic doesn't cause them to have problems with regulating their blood sugar, after all. "Selective mutism" is simply a name for the type of behaviour the OP's DD is exhibiting - and is a lot more helpful and less dismissive than "shy". Recognising it as such isn't going to make her speak even less and the treatment is pretty much how you describe, anyhow.

[SatinSandals]

If it was selective mutism this book has great reviews and would probably apply to the shy child anyway.
If you go on Amazon and search for 'how to help your shy child' or 'how to help your child with selective mutism' more turn up.
I think any of them would at least give some strategies and be encouraging, rather than negative.

[SatinSandals]

I can't recommend this book Amazon because I haven't read it but although it only has 3 reviews they are very positive and so it might help.
This one has masses of good reviews here I sometimes think that we don't value quiet people enough.

[SatinSandals]

I am in awe if her too- well done her! I bet she comes into her own later. One of my sons had speech therapy. I knew he had problems with some sounds but when I asked nursery what they thought they said 'but he never says anything', same in reception. Eventually they agreed it was a problem. He is now 24yrs, speaks to anyone and is the most outgoing of my children but he certainly wasn't at 7 yrs!
I think you want to avoid labels, children live up, or down, to them. If you label her shy she will think she has a problem and it will be even more difficult to overcome. It sounds to me as if she has inner reserves and is quite strong underneath.

[picnicinthewoods]

Thank you tethersend, I will take a look at your link too:)