History on TV

[MadBusLady]

Sooo, this comes off the back of this thread about Richard III and then this thread about MN History Club.

I thought it might be good to have a big general thread about any history on TV we are watching/looking forward to/really enjoyed in the past. And I see we are already tackling some of the major themes such as the rugged cheekbones and leather jackets of the presenters on the other thread.

We're currently watching Neil Oliver's Vikings series, which is ace - what I really like about it is he starts out in the first programme in the Scandinavian bronze age/iron age, and showed where the Vikings had come from as a culture.

[Paleodad]

nearer to St James Park

[LineRunner]

Was that the Newgate area?

[Paleodad]

Years ago i was digging in the middle of Newcastle, and overlying the (lovely) medieval layers were the big, fat, stone walls of a 19th century lead factory. Bloke comes up to the herris fencing and shouts "is it roman?", i go over and explain it is in fact the lead factory. He replies "no those stone walls must be a Roman Temple". I patiently explain (at some length) the stratigraphy etc. and how it can't possibly be earlier than the layers underneath. "no" says he, "it's a temple". "yes" i reply, "You're right, it's a Roman Temple", and he walks off smiling...

[LineRunner]

I like the bit on Guy de la Bedoyere's website where he expresses restrained concern about being berated by adult students for not answering their questions quickly enough!

"I?m sorry to say that, regrettably, in a few instances one or two adult students have taken exception to the idea that I?m not available at their beck and call and subjected me to the most extraordinary tirades. One actually wrote to complain that this website did not have a page devoted to her specific essay title, though that was by no means the rudest!"

Bless. Brings back memories of my own. We should get Guy on MN for a proper rant and we can all join in.

Also he is now a full-time teacher. A redemption of a sorts.

[clems]

and how many ask where the series of small walls are!

[Paleodad]

@Linerunner, you're quite right about 'ritual' and it is a bit of a running joke i suppose, maybe in part due to the 'Time Team' effect that non-archaeologists (& particularly clients) expect results/conclusions right there and then.

Personally, and in this context, i don?t really have a problem with the use of ritual, as it simply (imho) becomes a sort of short hand for saying 'there's more to this (feature) than meets the eye'; the excavated remains represent something more (perhaps conceptual practices) than a purely functional interpretation can support.

And surely you can't be serious about Guy De La Bedoyere

[Paleodad]

like i said the Time Team effect, i forget how many sites i've been on where people have said (both in jest and seriously) "Time Team do it in three days, how come you need x weeks?"

[clems]

Oo I dunno, I've been on plenty of sites where the developers have demanded we finish in three days.. we just told them to eff off, and didn't have Tony and Phil to extoll the virtues of a bit of crumbly pot to further our cause ;)

They film everything about five times from different angles and then spend half the time trying to work out how to inject the maximum sense of [false] jeopardy.

[LRDtheFeministDragon]

I would love to see David Icke debate with the Pope. About anything, really, but the nature of the ether while pretending they had three days to save the world - that would be a blockbuster.

I know how to have fun, me.

[LineRunner]

The excavators are really good. I suppose what I don't like is the artificiality of the rushed excavation, like something they've chosen to do for TV is somehow akin to rescue archaeology.

And what really hate is when they bring on a couple of archaeo-farts and set them up for a faux debate about a non-problem that is faintly embarrassing to have resurrected again.

A bit like having a programme about particle physics and making David Icke debate with the Pope about the nature of the ether whilst pretending they only had three days to save the world. Well ok it's actually nothing like that but it annoys me.

[clems]

There are lots of pros and cons to TT, but they do at least use proper archaeologists. Most work for the more traditional units outside the show, and I think a lot (if not all?) of the post excavation is done by one of the big firms.

I think someone somewhere probably made it illegal for Phil to drop the hat and get a haircut..

[MrsjREwing]

Phill on TT, why the long nails and boak at the sweaty hat.

[LRDtheFeministDragon]

I like that.

Good luck with grant apps! They sound like the bigger scarier cousin to what I'm doing, eek!

[LineRunner]

I think Paleodad might be more 'in the know' about this, but I think there's a running joke in archaeology that calling something 'ritual' means 'I don't know what it's for'.

LRD, I'm also writing researchy stuff - grant applications as it happens to re-write a monograph I did a long time ago. Doing my head in.

[LRDtheFeministDragon]

Because I am currently indulging in alternate bouts of sulking/panicking about postdoc apps, writing a 1000 word research proposal, and wishing no-one had told me there were over 100 applicants per place.





No, seriously, I am getting there thank you. I take your point about ritual/culture. Ritual as I'd use it has a fairly narrow (Catholic) sense, so I didn't pick up on that at all.

[LineRunner]

Hi LRD, I was going to say why aren't you busy finishing your thesis? that the idea of 'ritual landscapes' isn't per se considered woo - it's more that it's considered a bit of a lazy concept. If you think about it, anything can be considered 'ritual'. It's like saying something is 'cultural'.

[MadBusLady]

I definitely quibble and am precious. Occasionally I think "hm, I probably shouldn't be".

[LRDtheFeministDragon]

Fair enough, madbus, I am just quibbling then.

I did get annoyed at the 'national mindset' bit, though, and that was merited - it's a dodgily xenophobic thing to do, to attribute 'national mindset' to the Anglo-Saxons before there was even such a thing as a unified nation. Plus he kept talking about the vikings invading 'us' in England. 'Us' who? English today are not Anglo-Saxons.

I think that does tie in with what you're saying about the 'edge of the world' ... it was a wee bit rude.

I take your point about being precious.

[LineRunner]

I've just read Guy de la Bedoyere's website and I like him a lot more now.

[MadBusLady]

Hmm, the first one was better, we thought that. But I don't like dissing these things unless it's really merited, TBH. It's not yet another "The Vikings were big fierce, beardy men, here are lots of slo-mo action shots of actors making fierce noises" jobbie, and that puts it a long way ahead of most rivals. DP is also into the whole eastern Vikings thing so felt much vindicated that the series is touching on them at all.

In a museum recently I learned something incredibly basic about the Jurassic coast that blew my mind. It was just about the age of the coast and the conditions in Devon/Dorset that brought it about, things so fundamental a geologist or palaeontologist probably wouldn't even consider it a "fact" but to me it was new, and it was a pretty basic picture-led gallery (with, I'm sure, heaps of over-simplification and inaccuracy) that brought it home to me. It didn't matter, it gave me a starting point. When I wander around in another field as a beginner, I realise how precious I can be about the fields I am specialist in.

THAT SAID I did get a bit annoyed with the constant refrain (not confined to this series) about places in Scandinavia/the Baltic being "on the edge of the world". Only if you (a) are Christian/Orthodox/Roman/Byzantine and (b) have a particular kind of cartography.

[LRDtheFeministDragon]

Was the first Vikings programme any good? It's not on Iplayer and I only saw the second. It was very pretty TV but I found him quite an annoying presenter (England had a 'national mindset'? Really? I'm not even sure it does now. And 'shipmanship'/'craftsmanship' - if I were in his classes he would get feministy raised eyebrows for being a twonk with this one.)

But I would love to diss it with someone who knows what they're talking about.

DH's thing is Kievan Rus, but he is sadly less into the dissing of things than me, so was just amused at the real geek role-player Russians rolling their longboat.

[scaevola]

Following on from the Andrew Marr article, this is what the BBC has put on its website about what readers/viewers would want to see included. It's mainly unsung things that a huge the invention of double-entry book-keeping.

[Paleodad]

Horrible Histories is great, and best of all it's all true! Love the fact that they don't talk down to their audience either.

[strandednomore]

Love to know what you all think of Horrible Histories. My dd (7) loved is, she is always quoting from it. I think it's very funny, have just started reading their books too. I think it's a good way to get youngsters interested in history - I wish they had been around when I was little.