Why bother with A levels if...

[Miljea]

... you can get on a health care degree apprenticeship with a couple of GCSEs, a 3 month local tech P/T level 3 'Introduction to Health Care' course (essays, no exam); and an additional 'Step Up' 8 hours of 'prep' coursework? Thence onto a degree course with all but no academic time (20% of the total time); 1 exam (end of Y1) and all the rest being 'assessments' and 'essays'- run by the uni who want the cash and have no skin in the game - or accountability- once you 'qualify'?

Why did I bother with three A levels, including a science? And then paying for my degree?

Am I a mug -or is the British Public in the dark about the tumbling standards needed to be a HCP?

sashh "You do not need GCSEs for an Access course, that' the point of them, that you are prepared for uni."

Hereby lies the problem. You should be 2-3 A level standard to go to university. In order to qualify as a HCP.

A poster has already 🧐 that people with grade 2-3 GCSEs are getting all distinctions in their access courses.

Can one normally expect to go from no/grade 2-3 GCSEs to 2-3 A level equivalence in a year?

Because that is what's happening.

A poster has already 🧐 that people with grade 2-3 GCSEs are getting all distinctions in their access courses.

Well obviously it depends on the reasons for the grade 2-3 GCSEs doesn't it Does it ever occur to you that some 15 and 16 year olds have huge personal issues incomparable with revising? MH, drugs, looked after, not able to attend school for a multitude of reasons. Some reasons are down to the kids being utter pains in the arses as some are as teens, some due to quite dreadful circumstances beyond their control.

You want to write them off? Assume that the distinctions in their Access course are fake? Not give them any chance whatsoever once they've grown up and become settled? Good enough only for wiping arses, never able to demonstrate their potential.

Shame on you.

I can think of one contemporary whose GCSEs were horribly disrupted by the loss of their mother, two who were hospitalised for anorexia and one whose dyslexia wasn’t diagnosed until they were 18/19. So that’s four that I know of, two of those at grammar school, none of them culpable for the disruption to their education and all of them very academically bright.

So I agree with you @titchy

Hereby lies the problem. You should be 2-3 A level standard to go to university. In order to qualify as a HCP.

You think that, but you are not in charge of the world.

I actually think A Levels are a crap qualification for entry to a nursing degree, BTEC Level 3 is much more realistic and involves being in a health or care setting. For a 16 year old who knows what they want to do it is a far better preparation.

Access courses are designed for mature students to get them ready for uni.

Have you ever taken an Access course OP? Have you even been inside an classroom when an Access course is being taught?

Can one normally expect to go from no/grade 2-3 GCSEs to 2-3 A level equivalence in a year?

Yes. A level is not a particularly high standard of education. I took an AS because I was not working and board, it was supposed to be distance learning. I spent 3 days studying for paper 1, 1 evening for the second paper and then I actually forgot to attend the third paper.

I still got an AS, not a brilliant grade, had I attended the third paper I would probably have got an A. That's not because I'm super smart it's because I have a level of maturity that makes it easier.

And as for your obsession with A Levels, some of us are old enough to remember S-level papers. You would sit an S level alongside your A Levels, it would not be marked unless you had an A or B in the same subject.

As for the 'one year' well most colleges teach 9-5 where as most schools teach 9-3.30, some with an early finish on a Friday.

So that's 2 hours extra a day for 32 weeks.

Hereby lies the problem. You should be 2-3 A level standard to go to university. In order to qualify as a HCP.

I wouldn’t normally do this, but as you’re being so toweringly superior, I feel compelled to point out that “hereby” is the wrong word. You mean “herein” I think.

I have nowhere stated I don't think anyone should 'have a second chance'. In fact, I could argue this lack of clear thinking is the sort of dumbing down I'm talking about!

The point I am making is the 'alternative routes' into HCP degrees very much appear to be considerably less rigorous than 2-3 A levels and passed GCSEs in Maths and English.

If that's what we're okay with; so be it. But don't call them degrees.

They are still degrees though, they are still robust qualifications which are overseen by the regulatory body.

Don’t confuse getting onto the course with passing the course. Student attrition rate for healthcare degrees runs at over 30%. A significant proportion of which will have failed modules and had to leave.

The point I am making is the 'alternative routes' into HCP degrees very much appear to be considerably less rigorous than 2-3 A levels and passed GCSEs in Maths and English.

Well they're not less rigorous. That's your unqualified and unevidenced bias.

And they still do the same qualification so why wouldn't they be called degrees?

The point I am making is the 'alternative routes' into HCP degrees very much appear to be considerably less rigorous than 2-3 A levels and passed GCSEs in Maths and English.

And the point I'm making is that BTEC is a better preparation than A Levels.

I say this as an ex HCP who went on to a career teaching BTEC Health and Social Care, on access to health courses as well as other subjects.

I have a number or O Levels, an AO Level, A Levels, an AS level a BTEC (health related subject) an HNC (health related subject), degree, 2 x teaching qualifications, one at masters level and I am also someone who uses the NHS on a frequent basis due to a number of health issues.

Sorry what qualifications do you have again?

What experience do you have?

I would personally rather be nursed by someone who was academically average, and who had trained and move up on the job, and had the right personal qualities than someone who has done a nursing degree via an Access course. I used to work with students doing Access courses, some of whom were not very bright at all. The thought of the likes of them administering drugs to me while getting confused over decimal places makes me very nervous.

Conversely, I have known nurses who have done degrees who have quite a high opinion of themselves whose knowledge in some things has sometimes been worse than mine (as a non-HCP), some of whom seem to only be interested in "getting on", rather than the actual care aspect of the role.

Healthcare does seem to be an area where there is scope for progressing to a higher paid career without having been terribly academic at school.

sashh To get on a 3 A level equivalent BTEC (I.e. extended diploma- the one that should be the level at which you go to Uni) should require the same entry point as 3 A levels.

My DS1 with his 10 GCSEs (AABBBBBBCC) started A levels, but due to the immaturity that saw 6 of those GCSEs one grade lower than predicted 🙄, switched to re-start with a full-time two year BTEC extended diploma. He got Dstar, Dstar, D; 160 UCAS points.

Yes, he's now at Uni doing well in Computing.

But, none of us are under any illusion about how much easier the BTEC was when compared to A levels. It was 4 exams, and 20-odd assessments. Done at home, in his own time. Yes, with our input.

The reason he didn't get 3 Dstars was that the only modules he only 'passed' were the actual exams! Got largely distinctions and the odd merit, for all the other in-house, tutor assessed modules.

The equivalence just isn't there.

Now, is this a problem? Are we okay with this sort of BTEC entry? Or, even, are we therefore OK with a one year access course, entered via 'functional maths and English, done contiguously'?, not a GCSE to be seen? - given what we know about what I've just described?

Should the resultant HCP qualification even be called a 'degree'?

Sorry, sashh I didn't answer your question.

What qualification do I have?

A B.Sc (hons) in my HCP profession. There is no cobble together, no 'something-equivalent-level'.

Yes, my initial qualification was a Diploma as that was the only level on offer in 1980. To get on it you needed 3 A levels inc a science at A-E; plus Maths and English at O level.

The course was 9-5 Mon-Fri with 6 weeks off a year leave, for 2 and 1/4 years.

I then upgraded to an actual B.Sc (Hons) via 2 years remote learning, tested via exam condition exams.

Do I qualify?

sashh gosh, I'm so thick I even then didn't fully answer your question!

What experience do I have?

35 years, 33 as a senior HCP. Thus have been around the blocky. This am concerned about the dumbing down of HCP degree entry standards.

It’s not dumbing down, the access course makes HCP more accessible to adults coming from different career backgrounds. These adults come with families, mortgages, years working in other professions and this life experience counts for a lot. These adults are polar opposite to young school leavers with a handful of GCSEs/A levels/BTEC and tiny amounts of work experience and life experience. Both will contribute in a valuable way to the NHS

@Miljea

covidcorvid "They can do functional maths/English at the same time if necessary. Students who get 2s and 3s in their GCSEs then go onto get 45 distinctions on their access course. 🤷‍♀️ Does make you wonder how robust the access course is."

Indeed.

You are not coming across very well at all. Superiority complex?

Have you seen what a gcse exam looks like now since Gove dismantled the whole system? You know they are 1-9 now and not A,B,C etc?

Some of the kids I teach can’t write an essay on ‘A Christmas Carol’ or figure out algebra, but they have amazing futures ahead of them. Not because of people like you though.

GCSEs are the first exams that people do and they don't always have the exams skills they need or they just haven't developed academically yet. I failed most of my GCSEs or got an appalling grade because my revision skills were just to read the books which isn't effective for me but I didn't know that then. I still went to university and did two degrees plus a postgrad degree, like many later when I was older and arguably wiser worked better.

Young people can do badly or miss exams for many reasons not to do with academic ability - being a young carer, serious family issues, bereavement, dyslexia, physical health, hospital stays, poor education, peer pressure, giving birth, disinterest ,..

Now, is this a problem? Are we okay with this sort of BTEC entry? Or, even, are we therefore OK with a one year access course, entered via 'functional maths and English, done contiguously'?, not a GCSE to be seen? - given what we know about what I've just described?

Should the resultant HCP qualification even be called a 'degree'?

Sigh. You've just resurrected your thread by making the exact same point as in your OP. You've learned nothing from the contributions others have made.

Yes, we ARE ok with this sort of qualification being acceptable as an entry requirement - at least the professional body are and they're the experts. And as has been pointed out, this is the requirement to get on the course, not to qualify as an HCP. 30% drop out because it's hard. Giving people second chances via Access or other qualifications is a good thing.

And you should be ashamed of yourself for once again writing people off based on their teenage years.

Apparently you think even if they do the same degree programme for three years as someone who left school with A levels, they shouldn't get a degree at the end.

Miljea
covidcorvid "They can do functional maths/English at the same time if necessary. Students who get 2s and 3s in their GCSEs then go onto get 45 distinctions on their access course. 🤷‍♀️ Does make you wonder how robust the access course is."

Indeed. 
You are not coming across very well at all. Superiority complex?

Have you seen what a gcse exam looks like now since Gove dismantled the whole system? You know they are 1-9 now and not A,B,C etc?

Some of the kids I teach can’t write an essay on ‘A Christmas Carol’ or figure out algebra, but they have amazing futures ahead of them. Not because of people like you though.

I'm not quite sure where to begin with this.

I'm not trying to 'come across, very well', I am pointing out that appears to me to be, and have, as yet on here failed to be convinced otherwise- that the standards now needed to get onto a HCP degree seem lamentably low.

Does it matter that your dance tutor got her 'degree' following no GCSEs and a one year 'access course'? Probably not.

Does it matter that the lighting designer at your local AmDram theatre has a degree but no GCSEs. Probably not.

But- does it matter that your HCP has no O levels. No level 4 GCSEs in English and Maths? Sat a couple of years in-house access-y non examined courses? Has functional maths and/or English? And thus had cobbled together enough points to get on the degree course?

A degree course run pretty much entirely independently of the profession they train towards. Which then relies upon last-year's properly-degree-qualified Band 5s to certify your competence. Bearing in mind there's no skin in the game for them if they pass you, regardless of competence. And the student's ability to challenge you if you mark them down.

"Yes, we ARE ok with this sort of qualification being acceptable as an entry requirement - at least the professional body are and they're the experts."

I can only assume you're not shop-floor anymore if you think 'they're the experts'.

Look OP - who gives a fuck what the entry requirements to the course is? Surely passing the degree is what matters, not what went on in your life before hand. If you've met the clinical, academic, maths and English required on the course then you've met the standard. Regardless of what you went in with. You're equating degree entry requirements with ability to be a decent nurse. It's the three year degree that tests that, not the bloody entry requirement FFS.

There are lots of other education systems in the world (inc Europe) where access to a degree is open to a wide range of people, but very few will have the ability to progress and pass. I'd still trust. French doctor though, even though the entry requirement is less than for uk medicine.

I hope your 'shop floor' isn't full of nasty bigoted people like you that write people off as not worthy of becoming a nurse as an adult because they didn't do very well at school.

that the standards now needed to get onto a HCP degree seem lamentably low.

ITS THE STANDARDS REQUIRED TO PASS THAT MATTER, NOT THE STANDARDS TO START.

I teach BTEC and one thing I can say is that they’re so much better for preparing students for the general world of work. In my working life I’ve never had to sit in a room in silence and do work I’ve never seen before for three hours without any assistance. I have, however, had lots of lots of tasks I’ve had to organise, plan, co-ordinate with others and produce results by a deadline - the way BTECs work. The fact you did your son’s assignments with him says more about you than about BTECS; for most of the assignments I set their parents wouldn’t be able to do them unless they work in the industry anyway, and any help they could give would be along the moral support/time organisation lines which is all help any of us can get in our day to day working lives.