Working P/T and studying medicine?

[Monica53]

Hi
Our Dd in first year of medicine - bumpy first year ! with various things and being 6hr drive away from home - however summer holidays are looming and myself and her dad are dropping hints that she needs to get some sort of paid work as for 3/4 months we can’t support her and also for when she’s back at Uni trying a few hrs paid work for experience also to help her finances as her words I can’t afford to be a student 😳🥴. I’ve known and heard of med students working and studying so it is doable?

[goodbyestranger]

Strongly agree with Needmoresleep:

I think the working world generally is tough for young people. Medicine offers a valuable job security, and a wealth of interesting options.

Said as a parent of DC with varied careers, same as Needmoresleep. It gives perspective.

[goodbyestranger]

It's very arguable that many other jobs are equally and not less demanding than Medicine alreadytaken. For example, a great many lawyers working in the clinical negligence or human rights fields have incredibly difficult messages to convey to their clients. Doctors do not have a monopoly of delivering difficult, life affecting news.

[alreadytaken]

Since I dont wish to post identifying details for my child I'll just say that to my knowledge they have been in situations that potentially exposed them to a number of very serious illnesses. They are given lessons in how to wash hands properly at an early stage and when they have needed it other advice on how to stay safe/ how they would be treated if necessary. They do, of course get every vaccine going.

Sooner or later they will all make a mistake, possibly a serious mistake. One of the questions they may be asked when applying for a consultant post is how they responded to their first serious mistake. You need to be physically and mentally resilient to work as a doctor.

I wish mine had chosen a different career too, since several of their non-medical friends are already paid ridiculous sums of money. They are in demanding jobs - but not more demanding than medicine.

[HIVpos]

Still have to learn about the dangers, and it's not just HIV as I'm sure you know. There seem to be a whole host of yucky things that can be caught from bodily fluids.
Not sure many accountants or bankers have to tell a parent there child has a terminal disease or know that one mistake could result in someone's death.

Well yes there are things far more easily contracted than HIV from a discarded needle. (HIV is no longer regarded as a terminal illness btw so not quite sure why you chose to mention this in particular 🤷‍♀️) I’m sure your DD will receive proper training in order to avoid this happening. If you have concerns, perhaps talk over with her what she’s learnt and what procedures are in place?

[mumsneedwine]

Still have to learn about the dangers, and it's not just HIV as I'm sure you know. There seem to be a whole host of yucky things that can be caught from bodily fluids.
Not sure many accountants or bankers have to tell a parent there child has a terminal disease or know that one mistake could result in someone's death.

[HIVpos]

@mumsneedwine if your daughter did have an accident with a needle used for/by someone HIV+ and not on treatment It’s highly likely she’d be given PEP which would protect her from contracting the virus.

There’s actually never been a documented case of anyone contracting HIV from a discarded needle.

[mumsneedwine]

My DD had a talk today on how to tell someone they were dying. I'm not sure many other careers require this skill. Nor the one on what to do if you have a sharps accident with a needle infected with HIV. Really wish she'd chosen plumbing !!

[alreadytaken]

The way that junior doctors are treated varies considerably between consultants - and the hours they now work vary a lot between specialties. They can work 3 days of nights then be back on day shifts with barely a break then on nights again. When they are on the wards there are probably staff shortages and many more patients coming through the doors than there were even 10 years ago. They are also more likely to be on the receiving end of complaints and verbal and physical abuse.

Anyone need reminding about the manslaughter charge for a very overworked junior just back off maternity leave?

Junior doctors are sometimes allowed to do more during their elective than they are when they return. Some choose an elective with that in mind. What the NHS allows them to do may sometimes be below their capability.

You wont see many bankers putting their lives at risk treating covid-19, running towards a terroist attack - or even just working Christmas Day. Sure there are some advantages to a medical career - but the banker will have less student debt and if they are successful could probably afford to retire earlier.

[Needmoresleep]

I’m going to disagree with mumsneedwine, even though we are not a medical family so I don’t know much about the realities.

What really stands out is the diversity of careers. Want regular hours? I have known doctors choose pathology or even working in a STI clinic. P/T? Perhaps a GP? If DD has a yen, she could get a job in the Highlands and Islands, or Western Cornwall.

As far as I can see, though this might be a London perspective, almost all young graduates who are trying to achieve a foothold in new careers, work very hard indeed, whether law, banking or accountancy or at jobs within the public sector. DS aspires to be an academic, and the competition is brutal. And my neighbour’s son has only just landed a “proper” job in media after almost a decade of low paid and insecure work.

There is no doubt medicine can be physically and emotionally demanding. Even in her first clinical year there have been a couple of incidents that have got to DD. However. Just from observation, I have seen successful bankers in their 40s start to worry about job security, whereas the careers of a couple of good medic friends have really flourished in their 50’s as they achieve seniority, complete research, and acquire additional medicine related positions.

I think the working world generally is tough for young people. Medicine offers a valuable job security, and a wealth of interesting options.

DD decided at about 12 that she did not want to work ‘in an office’. She is really enjoying her course and it is a decision she does not regret, even though her interests seem to lie in a field that will require long hours and long training, and indeed was largely closed to women a generation back.

[mumsneedwine]

Think it was the other doctors also telling you that it's not nice to be unkind to current junior doctors just because you had it so tough. But if you feel better having a go at me please feel free.
OP I'm off. Good luck to DD for the next few years and hope she finds a job for the summer.

[Moreisnnogedag]

Oh give over mumsneedwine. On an anonymous forum we are allowed to chuckle at the differences and expectations that juniors have now compared to when we were at a similar stage. Regardless of my actual opinion of the ridiculous expectation that seniors hold their hands through every patient encounter, I will drag my ass down to A&E at three in the morning and smile and reassure and walk them through something. Then at eight they get to go to bed whereas I have a full day of theatre/clinic ahead of me.

I wholeheartedly support the idea that juniors shouldn’t be beasted as we were or made to put up with the rampant sexism that we had to. However we have swung too far the other way where we are doing our very junior doctors a disservice by pretending that they can’t do without a senior peering over their shoulder for the first four years. All it does is make being a registrar that much harder (with much more liability attached) and churns out consultants that have a much greater reduced level of experience. These juniors are professionals and we should treat them as such, not like barely capable teenagers.

[mumsneedwine]

DD has exams every 6 weeks and then a whole bunch of them at the end of the year. She works (& plays) hard and is enjoying it, but strikes not helping with neurology at the moment. I'm not sure brains are a self-teach subject ☹️

[Amara123]

There are a few things different in med school nowadays I think, that make things a bit more challenging during term. There is more modularisation so there can be exams every 6-8 weeks. I studied med when this was introduced. You feel like you're on a hamster wheel.
She may be feeling nervous about the prospect of a resit, which can be very likely in med school.
When I was further on in med school I had clinical ward hours from 7.30 to lunchtime, lectures from 2-5 or 6. Then study afterwards for exams. It's a pretty gruelling course.
Summertime work is possible though and I did do that.
Also I hate the current trend towards negging young doctors now and going on about how we had it much harder etc. It's a challenging career at all levels, always was, always will be.

[MrsNoah2020]

Juniors nowadays are a lot more protected and have a seemingly disproportionate number of ‘rest days’ with exception reporting encouraged. Gone are the days of stretches of three weeks of being in with no off days working late more often than not

I would far rather train in the way we did, as tough as it was, than be today's juniors, with perpetual shift work and no connection to a firm or their own patients.

[mumsneedwine]

So let's agree that doctors have it tough. And try and make things better. Not minimise the stress that today's medics are under, just because it used to be worse. DD doesn't ask for tea and sympathy and works her backside off to minimise her debt, not having rich parents to help her out. She has paid work on top of study, not something many of her contemporaries have to deal with.
But she does appreciate support from senior staff and has yet to be told she's bitching or winging.
And what profession takes more than 5 year at Uni ? Just curious. DD has friends doing law and architecture and they worked out she'll have more debt at the end.

[HoppingPavlova]

Yes, yes, we know, she is really badly done by and has a really hard time of it. Poor thing. Will leave the tea and sympathy for you as that’s what mums are for .

Yes, she may have student debt but it’s not that bad and considerably less than one of my kids has for another profession. She also has the benefit of a more equal playing field and opportunities though. For example count how many orthopaedic specialists my age are women, you probably won’t need any hands. There’s a hell of a lot that’s improved for your DD in addition to working conditions. Stuff they now take for granted. I do agree that there is an issue though with increased suicide and mental health issues as the landscape has changed in regards to fortitude and resilience etc so they do need to be treated differently with this in mind.

[mumsneedwine]

Oh and finally. She'll be saddled with nearly £60,000 of debt in order to become a doctor. So not everything has improved !!!

[mumsneedwine]

And as a student how many lecturer strikes did you have to contend with ? Because my DD is now dealing with 6 weeks of it just this academic year. They still have to know their stuff but self teaching a lot if it.

[mumsneedwine]

I don't refute it at all. I know hours were ridiculous and treatment poor. But that's doesn't mean today's junior doctors don't work hard and they deserve not to be told they are bitching and winging. They are working with the conditions they have. There is a reason so many quit or comit suicide and I think senior doctors attitudes could help. Just read 'It's going to hurt'. The people the NHS don't look after well are their staff.Yes you had it tougher, so maybe support making life better for the next generation, not complaining because they are tired too.

[HoppingPavlova]

mumsneedwine , yes while it may be more understaffed it’s not at your DD’s level. The reality is that juniors these days are more supported and have it a lot easier than we did. You seem to refute this but it’s definitely true. We just sucked it up and got on with it in resignation that it was what it was and ‘this too shall pass (if I don’t drop dead first)’. Juniors these days, not so much ......

[mumsneedwine]

Blimey, hope my DD has more supportive doctors to work for when she's 'bitching and winging' about how easy it is to be a junior doctor these days. Because we all know the NHS is so well staffed now and F1s all spend their days eating cookies.
Have you seen the Yorkshire men sketch ? Back in my day .....

[Moreisnnogedag]

True and yet they bitch and whinge so much more than we did when we had it much harder.

I left that bit out...

[HoppingPavlova]

Juniors nowadays are a lot more protected and have a seemingly disproportionate number of ‘rest days’ with exception reporting encouraged. Gone are the days of stretches of three weeks of being in with no off days working late more often than not.

True and yet they bitch and whinge so much more than we did when we had it much harder. Anyway, not to take it off topic and back to other work, as everyone said through the nursing home idea out there. It’s also good for learning how to deal with patients of this demographic.

[Cooper88]

The ideal job I can think of for your DD is as a HCA, and if she can get"sleeper shifts" in a nursing home then that would be ideal, as you are there incase you are needed but you also get some (not always a lot) sleep so frees up her day times. Also you get a higher rate of pay and the shifts generally run from about 9/10pm through to 7/8am .

[Moreisnnogedag]

@MrsNoah2020 I’m not sure that’s particularly helpful or true anymore. Juniors nowadays are a lot more protected and have a seemingly disproportionate number of ‘rest days’ with exception reporting encouraged. Gone are the days of stretches of three weeks of being in with no off days working late more often than not.