Law and I haven't a clue

[thesunalwaysshineson]

DS decided a couple of years ago that he wanted to do Law.

Without any input whatsoever from me, he's worked hard and done loads of work experience and useful extra-curricular stuff but now he's got his offers he's asking for my advice and I haven't got a clue.

In our entire extended family, he's the first person to go to uni and I just don't know anyone who has been through the process, and I certainly don't know anyone who works in the legal profession.

Basically he is predicted AAB in three facilitating subjects.

On his teachers advice he applied to three decent unis that require AAB for law, but they are not Russel Group.

He also put one RG uni that asks for AAA and one insurance choices that is RG but not well regarded for Law and requires ABB.

He submitted his form last Friday and by Monday had received offers from all five - brilliant news and we were really excited.

But now he wants my help making his choices. We are basing all of it on googling and trawling through places like Student Room but are just lost.

Basically it seems that a RG uni is very important for law, but he is worried that he won't make the AAA offer and it looks like his insurance ABB uni is not well regarded.

He likes all of his three non RG unis, and they've got good reputations, and one of them is willing to drop their offer if he firms them, but now our googling suggests he might not get a job after if he goes to any of them.

Please help. I think AAB predictions are good and he's so self-motivated and hard-working and I don't want to let him down. I'm jealous of all the families with knowledge and connections!

[goodbyestranger]

Goldenchildsmum he really, really doesn't need to know what a magic circle firm is at this stage. It has absolutely nothing to do with any aptitude for law. Three of my DC are lawyers (two magic circle and one barrister) and I don't expect any of them knew what the magic circle was ahead of applying for uni (even though I was at one myself).

OP I'd say Nottingham and Liverpool too. Good luck to your DS.

[PointeShoesandTutus]

I think it depends where you’re from too. Some smaller firms like to recruit local - a lot of Lancashire solicitors went to Lancaster or UCLan, and I would guess there’s more Leicester graduates practicing in that area.

I wouldn’t put too much regard in league tables - they all say different things and the middle universities shift up and down fairly regularly. The RG unis will always be preferred by the intrinsically snobby legal profession because they (generally) have a longer and more stable reputation.

But really, truly, it’s not everything. If he falls in love with Lancaster and feels happy there he’s likely to do better overall.

[thesunalwaysshineson]

Thanks everyone.

I'm going to recommend taking his time and going to the applicant days with a view to firming Nottingham and putting Liverpool (or Leicester, maybe) as his insurance.

So useful, thank you all for helping us, and for the advice about things we wouldn't have known about such as the paid vacation schemes.

[thesunalwaysshineson]

Cross posted pointe. You are so right. He needs to go back and look at them all again but at least I feel a bit more informed!

[Goldenchildsmum]

Goldenchildsmum he really, really doesn't need to know what a magic circle firm is at this stage.

My mistake, then. A lad I know missed out on a MC law conversion place because his degree (a 1st) is from UCL not Oxbridge (he was told this)

[goodbyestranger]

That's extremely odd since DS2 currently just finished the conversion and in the thick of the accelerated LPC says there are a fair few non Oxbridge going to his and other MC firms, incl from UCL.

[goodbyestranger]

Sorry - bit of a sidetrack.

[Goldenchildsmum]

I was quite surprised as I'd have thought a first from UCL was very worthy indeed

[latedecember1963]

In the end DS2 chose Birmingham as his first choice but Leicester was his insurance. He was really impressed with the Law department and if they had offered International Law at the time he may well have swapped his preferences around.

There is no rush to decide. He will be given opportunities to visit again for offer holder days and these really are worth doing. We were like you in that we didn't know anyone who had done law when our son decided it was what he wanted to do, but we just showed an interest and listened to him when he wanted to mull over his options. If you had asked us 4 years ago about the magic circle we'd have instantly thought of magicians. 😂
Good luck to your son on whatever he decides is the best fit for him.

[MarchingFrogs]

A lad I know missed out on a MC law conversion place because his degree (a 1st) is from UCL not Oxbridge (he was told this)

Well, that's all but a handful of graduates out of every UK student cohort completely stuffed, then, isn't it? So it's true after all that unless you get into Oxbridge, your life is effectively over at the age of 18. Perhaps people should stop mocking the callow youth that pop up every year on TSR with their All universities except Oxford and Cambridge should be closed down.

Or possibly not? As has been mentioned earlier, chances are that local solicitors around the various universities are likely to be graduates of those universities. Or is the law only a worthwhile career if you practice it at a glitzy City firm?

(OP, I used to work round the corner from a certain organisation in Stephenson Way, behind Euston Square station and when I first heard mention of Magic Circle lawyers would wonder just what the folk at number 12 got up to in their performances that caused them to need so much in the way of legal assistance and why it was so desirable to be the provider of it. Wrong MC, it transpired...).

[Xenia]

If you look at the list I linked to you can see the numbers and from which universities and nottingham does quite well. Oxbridge, Durham, Bristol etc do well too. If he wants to be paid by a law firm to take his post grad law year which for the moment is called the LPC then that tends to be the better more profitable firms that do that and you can always move to a more regional firm after you qualify if you want to.

So if you look this link you can see that one law firm is recruiting this term (2020) for law graduates who will start at the firm in 2022 which would mean starting their law post grad LPC course in 2021 and thus starting year 3 of their law degree in Sept 2020. A year before taht students would have applied for paid "vacation schemes" eg during the second year at university/summer holidays I think but always check the dates for the particular firms. (I applied to 139 firms and had 25 interviews before getting one but perhaps I was particularly bad at it all.......)

The firm below says "We use the Rare Contextual Recruitment System across all our trainee recruitment activity. The system helps us identify high- potential candidates by putting applicants’ grades and achievements in the context of their social and educational background."

www.slaughterandmay.com/careers/trainee-solicitors/application-process/]]

[scarecrowfeet]

St Andrews, Lancaster, Bath - not RG and all rated in the top 10 of various league tables. I went to an RG which is now way down the list. My ds is doing Law at Lancaster and loves it.

[MarchingFrogs]

The firm below says "We use the Rare Contextual Recruitment System across all our trainee recruitment activity. The system helps us identify high- potential candidates by putting applicants’ grades and achievements in the context of their social and educational background."

I guess (hope) that wasn't the firm that the unfortunate young man of Goldenchildsmum's acquaintance hankered after joining.

[BubblesBuddy]

I think the other route law grads take is in business roles. As many law grads don’t make it and are competing with non law grads as well, it’s a case of being open to a variety of careers. Training contracts and pupillage for becoming a barrister are highly competitive (even for local firms with big law departments in the local university) and having plans A,B and C are necessary!

I also agree with Nottingham though.

[BubblesBuddy]

I meant don’t make it to be solicitors or Barristers!

[Xenia]

Good advice.
On that contextual offer quote I put above - I think that particular system looks at your post code area and the exam results from the school you attended so give a rough idea. So rough area postcode and poor results from your school compared to which you did well means you score higher. Posh post code plus school with high grades lower.

[SirTobyBelch]

Nottingham then Liverpool definitely. Law is a very snobby profession

But it can't even get its snobbery right. Liverpool is not a "better" university than Leicester. The fact it's a member of a particular lobby group is no reflection of its quality. If recruiters at "top" (i.e. most grossly overcharging) firms give greater priority to universities' PR than to the quality of their graduates I don't think it'll be long before they begin to pay the price.

[Xenia]

They are not snobby. They want the brightest people and of course if someone isn't bright enough they get the law wrong and clients can lose £100m so it is not a bad idea to make sure lawyers and surgeons etc are up to the job. In fact the contexual recruitment above of the big firms and the fact some now do the interview stage without knowledge of someone's university shows how keen they are to get very very clever people but from any background. However it is best to narrow your odds by going to a university where A level requirements are very high and then getting the best grades you can too. it is just common sense.

Liverpool and Leicester are both on the list I linked to and only about 2 places apart. The list is the numbers recruited from universities to those law firms. So that means if a university has hardly any students because it is a very small one then obviously fewer are recruited so bear that in mind too when looking at the list. In fact many students with all As many from oxbridge do not get jobs in the best firms - it is a lottery and luck plays a part too but you have to be in it to win it and I did my 139 applications and my 25 interviews before getting a job - mind you that was in the middle of a dreadful recession so times come and go.

[Moominmammacat]

I went to a 60th birthday party recently ... plenty of rich lawyers from Leicester!

[MarchingFrogs]

I went to a 60th birthday party recently ... plenty of rich lawyers from Leicester!

Ah, but how many had actually been to university there?

[Xenia]

Some. I know a few very well off self made Asian lawyers there - one in particular is very well off and has done incredibly well. Leicester was my back up offer had I not made my grades for the first choice university a very very long time ago but I agree it is not one of the best to go to if you will get grades to enable you to attend a top 5 or 10 place.

[BubblesBuddy]

Just to put some numbers to this discussion. There are around 22,000 law undergrads at any one time. Some are from overseas, around 4,000, and some will not be seeking employment in this country.

There were, according to the Law Society, around 5,800 training contracts offered last year and there are around 450 pupillage opportunities to train to be a barrister. Therefore 2/3 of British law grads don’t get training opportunities. Also training opportunities do not just go to law grads. High calibre grads who have undertaken an academic course can convert to law and they can be as high as 45% of the intake. This is why firms can be choosy. They don’t just recruit from law grads.

The result of all of this is that university and course matters. So does cv, and extra Law related activities that add to it. It means that law grads have to be as flexible as any other humanities grads regarding employment. Studying law doesn’t necessarily give grads a big advantage in getting a training contract unless they are at the top top universities. However, as a group, they do form the majority of trainees.

So be flexible and choose the best you can get into. Long gone are the days when every law grad got a training contract.

[Xenia]

And in fact even in my day 80s when 50% failed the solicitors' final course I believe they rationed places (on the onlye 3 places in the country you could do the post grad course) on the course based on how many trainees were needed. That was an alternative way to do it which meant of the half who passed they were likely to get training contracts - although I had 25 interviews before getting one.

Whereas now if you can afford the post grad fees or get a student loan which can now do for versions of the current LPC course (now there are student loans for post grad degrees) anyone with a 2/2 can probably get on the courses. I think that free market is probably fairer but I can see it both ways - some people get on the course and incur debt who have no chance of getting a job.

[BlaueLagune]

When I was a MC trainee about 2/3 of my intake were from Oxbridge and that was quite weird, the intakes around mine were more half and half.

Universities that were represented included Leeds, Cardiff, Kingston Poly as it then was, Bristol, Bath, Kings College London, Exeter, UCL (!), Birmingham, Nottingham, York, LSE.