Becoming a University Professor/Lecturer/Tutor

[seisachtheia]

Hello all,

I have a DS at Oxford. He's studying Classics, and is hugely passionate about it. He thinks he might like to go into teaching at a university/further research or possibly go to the bar.

So what is the process these days? BA then MA then Dphil/Phd?

Is it worth it? What is they pay like?

[summerflower2]

I agree with whotheeff, If you don't try, you will never get it. The best attitude is to aim the goal, know the difficulties, work hard to get it. Even they don't get it in the end, they will find other ways to earn a life . Especially OP's son is at Oxford, it is already a good start point.

[impostersyndrome]

But @whotheeff, why raise people’s expectations, when the likelihood of landing a permanent academic post, even if it weren’t in a low demand subject, are vanishingly small? Yes, it can be rewarding, but unless you’re aware of the pitfalls you are likely to have years of frustration.

[whotheeff]

I'm stunned and disappointed about how many are saying no. Granted classics is very much an old boys network still of Oxbridge graduates but if someone wants to do it let them at least try - support them instead of discouraging them. I've just gone back to academia after 25 years in business and wish I'd done it sooner. It's so rewarding and engaging with students is so wonderful!

[SarahAndQuack]

Yes ... but the thread is about Classics ...

[Redwinemaestro]

I think doing a post-doc depends on the subject area. My wife has a PhD in Management but never did post-doc. She is a lecturer in a non-Russel university, but a business school that's consistently ranked in the top 40 in Financial Times business school rankings

[Redwinemaestro]

My area is strategic management and international business. I don't have much knowledge about classics.

I check jobs.ac.uk every week to see what's out there. Usually universities ranked below 50 have teaching lecturerships that doesn't require a PhD.

[SarahAndQuack]

There are many universities that don't require PhD as entry criteria for lecturers.

Would you like to list those universities, then, and tell us what their Classics departments are like?

[Redwinemaestro]

I'm a Senior Lecturer in a university (non-Russel). I don't have a PhD. Joined academia as Teaching Fellow straight after my masters, and then became Lecturer and Senior Lecturer. Full-time permanent job that has 5 hours of teaching per week on average. I'm also the programme director of a course that is delivered in more than ten countries. So a bit of travel involved. Use my free time for consultancy work.

It depends on the route taken. Research route takes more time to go up the ladder while management route is quicker. I'm not a believer in academic publications. Who reads all the thousands of journal articles published every year?! There will be 20-25 per year in a subject area that will have real impact.

There are many universities that don't require PhD as entry criteria for lecturers. Do PhD if you are passionate about research in your field.

[AgentCooper]

My initial reaction is NO but...

I have a PhD in French, which is a field without a lot of movement- people just don’t retire, and the teaching at the lower levels is done by hourly paid colleagues who get a pittance. Jobs are very hard to come by and most of the people I know, with and without permanent posts, have had to relocate numerous times, often for no great salary.

HOWEVER - if your DS is passionate, willing to slog away through the temporary contract years without much financial return for very hard work and to relocate then fair enough. No reason he has to limit himself to the UK.

But not a simple or easy career choice by any means. An MPhil initially sounds a wise idea.

[gemmaxyz]

Comparison with being an actor or musician is a great way to get across how much it has changed, how insecure it is for most, how vast the competition, and how very few get the well-paid secure jobs. It is not what it was 20 or 30 years ago. A lot of universities have cut back on permanent posts and replaced them with temporary and sessional contracts.

3 yr Cambridge job starts on £32k for Res. Associate in their Languages+medieval languages dept, only requires PhD, some pubs & specific skills (but not prior WE).

A post like this will have dozens, perhaps even hundreds of applicants from all over the world, all of them top students from top universities who are incredibly keen and brilliant, and were the best in their year at undergrad level. Plenty of them will have been on other temporary contracts for years already.

[panelledreverie]

Always worth having a back up plan and thinking about transferable skills, phds are definitely a qualification that can be a negative in terms of earning potential but if your DS does go into it with his eyes open, he may spend 10 years doing what he loves before he has to find a new plan - is that so bad?

I used to work with a classics phd who went into IT - plenty of us will change careers. It depends whether the risk of having to change careers and not be high earning in the early part of your life means that you wouldn’t pursue what you love most - only he can decide that.

[Stillabitemo]

also worth noting the HE sector is awaiting the Auger review at the moment which might have significant impact on the sector and consequently jobs and courses.

[Xenia]

It sounds like he might consider the bar too. I am a lawyer and I recommend it. I know people at the bar on £1m a year (although I am not saying all barrister earn that) and it's very acaemic and very interesting and you are self employed. If he wants to go down that route he needs to look at the timings for application for the GDL course and for pupillages etc. and they recruit several years before you start work so you need to get within the deadlines.

He could have a look at some barristers' CVs in the kinds of areas where he might want to work as they put the CVs up on line on their websites and he can see particularlyo for the most junior people i.e. most up to date recruitment where they went and what they did in terms of degree, post grad etc.

[sendsummer]

It is great that he is so enthusiastic.
Firstly does he love to write? That is the primary output of being an academic and really he should want to write even in so called spare time outside of a normal working week. Otherwise he will quickly tire of being a humanities academic.
Secondly he should talk to as many junior and senior academics as possible to ask advice and hear their career trajectories. He may get ideas of how best to plan things including considering junior posts abroad. Thirdly as SarahQuack says, one step at a time, apply for a 1 Year research based MPhil and take it from there.

[BackforGood]

I'd listen to SarahAndQuack

My knowledge is Science, not Classics, but most people can't afford to stay in research, because the money is awful to start with, and - crucially - the contracts are short term, so you can't get a mortgage etc on your salary. Eventually, after some post docs, you can get a lectureship and then start to work up (whilst lecturing, doing your research, applying for grants, and going to enough conferences to get your name and work known, and publishing all at the same time.

A tiny, tiny, tiny minority of people get to be offered a Chair though.

[shiveringtimber]

If he's passionate about it, let him!

[Deianira]

The most recent figures I have seen are that roughly one in ten classics PhDs are managing to stay in academia. The job market is truly awful in the UK and US. All of the short term contract issues that previous posters have raised definitely apply, and, even worse, they are often ten month contracts at the moment, so you have to take another job over the summer or desperately stretch out your income to cover the gap (often while still looking for the next job, and then having to plan your next move, without any income in advance, across the country if you are lucky and get the next job). It's rare to get a permanent job before 5-10 years of these temporary posts.

Academia has its benefits, and working on the subject you love is often great. To that end, doing a PhD can still be really good, especially with funding. But the reality of it as a career in many subject areas at the moment is really awful, and I think it's totally reasonable (if not more sensible) for people to think that maybe they'd rather have a job for a whole year at a time, not have to constantly leave friends and find new places to live, and deal with the crushing uncertainty of where your income is coming from. I certainly don't think anyone should go into this career without their eyes very firmly open, and a really serious alternative in mind.

[summerflower2]

I might be an optimistic person anyway. I believe any other good careers will need same determination and hard work.

DH is a professor in a stem subject, he took 2 postdoc postions, then moved to lecturer at the same university of the second postdoc, so we moved city once. There was no gap between the post, but I do recall the anxiety at the end of the first post. And it is hard working, as DH seems work all the time, even during Christmas time, as he has to mark the exam papers.

I had a discuss with DS and reminded DS the uncertainty of the ealier years and the low pay compare to the ability and hard working. DH do suggest DS to keep an open mind on this, as most of his PHD student have dropped out the academic and find jobs in company, as it is hard.

DH's suggestion is to find out if he is a person with new ideas. You generally need new ideas to survive in academic road.

[SarahAndQuack]

inthewalls, it's not worth comparing the progression for someone who did it in a subject where there's considerable external demand for PhDs!

[arilla]

Another one saying god no.

I have so many friends who did PhDs, managed a few years of posts, and ultimately got nowhere and entered low paid jobs in the workforce in their 30s.

It's way too competitive. Even really specialist posts seem to be fought over. That's partly because there aren't many jobs. Look at a major university department (the Russell group ones are the main research ones); try to guess at how many academics they have, how many might be getting to retirement age, and how many PhD students there are. It's insane.

Universities want income though (and postgraduate researchers), so they will always encourage it.

[Malbecfan]

DH did BSc then PhD at one institution in a STEM subject, post doc at another for 2 years, then post doc elsewhere for 3, but that was a rolling 3 month contract and really frustrating, but that's where we met. He applied for lots of lectureships as he had a proven research/publishing track record and finally got one so we both relocated.

He had to write & teach courses and labs for every part of the 4 year course, set and mark 4 sets of exams each year and manage 3rd/4th year projects as well as his own research. If he focussed on teaching, the research people downgraded him & complained he wasn't publishing enough or bringing enough money into the department. If he concentrated on research, the students all complained about the teaching. In the end he was listed for voluntary redundancy and took the package, although within 2 months, the uni was on the phone asking for him to come back to teach. He found a job in industry very quickly and his salary increased by 40% whilst his free time also improved as he was no longer spending every evening & weekend planning and marking. We have friends who work in my home city at a different university again and they say it's not the job it was, very similar to DH's experience.

I believe the USA has a better system once you have done your 5-7 years as you get security of tenure. It might be something for your DS to look into, but I would not recommend it in the UK.

[MedSchoolRat]

I dunno about classics, it's a narrow academic job market out there for that skillset, tbf. & tbf, the people I know who recently went straight from PhD to lectureship usually had decades of other work experience behind them (as probation officer or nurse, for instance).

Otherwise, I agree with everything summerflower2 wrote as a plausible path for many.
Example: job vacancies at Leciester Uni for research associates postdoc is the stupidest job title ever. Eg., vacancy #1002, Band6 jobs start near £30k & go up to £39k. Requires PhD but not prior years of WE.

My PhD student (politics, really) got 3 decent journal publications out from her PhD & before she submitted thesis, so don't anyone tell me that's too difficult for most to achieve.

3 yr Cambridge job starts on £32k for Res. Associate in their Languages+medieval languages dept, only requires PhD, some pubs & specific skills (but not prior WE).

[InTheWalls]

Honestly, I think it really depends from person to person and luck does come into it. DH went straight from PhD to Post Doc to Lecturer at well known universities within 5 years with no periods of unemployment and no forced relocations. He is happy with his job and has a good work life balance.

Some of his friends have had similar paths. Others haven't been so lucky though and are still moving from one Post Doc post to another and struggling to put down roots. However his subject is one that it would be easy (and much better paid than academia) to move into industry from.

As a previous poster suggested, I'd suggest he think about an MA first and reflect then.

[MountainEagle]

PhD (relocate). Post doc (relocate again). Another post doc (relocate again, starting to get fed up with leaving home and friends now. Or maybe by now you can’t realistically relocate so you go Mon-Fri and live in halls of residence with teenagers, only going back to your wife at weekends). Lectureship (if you can get one and persuade your wife and kids to move yet again). These will probably be interspersed with periods of unemployment and hourly paid temp contracts. You won’t be able to buy a house or car due to short term contracts and uncertainty. You might not even be able to develop long term relationships or friendships.

And that’s a rare example of someone who successfully gets a permanent job in the end after maybe 15 years of temp work. Many people get stuck in unemployment or hourly paid jobs and don’t get the chance to progress to the next step.

My advice: choose a different career with a decent chance of permanent employment in a permanent location, where you can buy a house and build a life.

[SarahAndQuack]

The route is to finish a PHD first, then find a lecturer job/ or post doctor research fellow position. The starting point is around £30k. You can search the salary scale for university for this.

This is optimistic to the point of being unrealistic.

I'd suggest he applies for an MPhil (or similar). There's no harm in that and it will give him a sense of whether or not he enjoys further study. Lots of good people go on from that to train as lawyers anyway. The best person in my MPhil cohort did.

After than, if he wanted to continue, he'd apply for a PhD/DPhil. This is a longer commitment of time. Again, nothing to stop someone with a PhD changing tack and going into law afterwards.

After a PhD, he'd apply for postdocs. It is vanishingly rare to go straight into a lectureship. Postdocs do not typically start at 30k. Indeed, Oxford offers a lot of 'stipendiary' postdocs for 3k and upwards. These are designed to provide funding (and, arguably, exploitative teaching) for people who're just finishing or have just finished their PhDs. Another popular and exploitative option post-PhD is the nine-month teaching contract, where you are not funded over the summer (when you'd do research), but you are expected to be 'research active'.

You might do postdocs for five or more years. So, in your early-to-mid 30s, you might be a realistic possibility for a lectureship. That would start at 30k, these days.

The numbers of people who make it that far are very, very small. A lot of people drop away, and often money is the issue. Moving every couple of years and having lots of financial uncertainty is quite difficult.

(Incidentally, a professor is a very senior academic - it's only in the US that 'professor' is the general term for someone teaching at university level.)

I am not saying this to put him off. I'm a postdoc; my subject is fairly similar to Classics in terms of employability/career paths. I love it and I don't regret doing it at all. But a lot of people feel upset that no one really told them how hard and uncertain it would be. There's absolutely no guarantee you'd get an academic job. I know people who are excellent - first class degree, distinction at masters, excellent PhD, two books published, prestigious postdoc fellowships ... and they've still not ended up with permanent jobs in their mid 30s.