Final year - drop out?

[Thebluehen]

My son is in his final year at Nottingham doing a Maths degree.

He did well in his first year mostly helped by his A* grades at A level he suspects.

The second year he did really badly in, was miserable, buried his head in the sand about getting help and support and consequently failed a lot of his exams and then got even worse marks in his resits.

He failed the year but got an average of around 45% so apparently he was "allowed" back to go on to year 3.

He is now mid January exams and he is telling me after each exam how much he hates it and wants to leave.

Getting a Maths degree from Nottingham was his dream since he was 13 when he put the uni prospectus on his wall.

I get the impression that the uni don't want to help unless he sees his GP and says he is depressed. He is refusing to do this and honestly, I don't think he is depressed but I do feel he needs a bit of nurturing and huge impersonal lectures and being "left to it" aren't suiting him.

I think he is just miserable and every failure knocks his confidence a bit more.

I didn't go to uni myself, so I don't really know what he should do and have to trust what he is telling me as a grown man but I suspect he has not put as much effort in as he could do and I also suspect that as a quiet, shy person, he has not asked for much help and has fallen off the radar a bit.

I really don't know what to advise him.

[SarahAndQuack]

Poor him. I think he's doing the exact right things now. But, I just wanted to say - my older brother did a Maths degree and I remember him also finding that year 1 went easily because he was leaning on good A Levels, year 2 was a bit tougher, and year 3 felt really unpleasant. My brother's now an academic teaching maths! But I remember at the time he felt really down. So I wonder if maybe maths degrees tend to have that sort of pattern to them?

[justasking111]

My DS had a brilliant tutor who contacted us to say he was going to fail beginning of third year, (girlfriend problems which we knew nothing about) his solution was a year out in industry. DS did that then went back into halls the following year to complete final year and flew through the course getting honours. DS said being out in the world working sorted his head out.

[Thebluehen]

Thank you all for the advice.

My son is going to register and make an appointment with the gp at uni. His sleep routine is really poor and we talked about whether this could be a symptom of depression.

He's also got an appointment with his tutor and he's said he is going to ask for details of PhD students that might be able to help.

I feel the above are steps in the right direction.

[maryso]

For a subject like maths, topology444 has good advice. Struggling in 2nd year in degree maths is a pretty clear signal that a major and probably painful change in approach is essential and even then there is no guarantee of success. Getting the 60%+ from 45% is a big ask even with a combination of serious coaching and the easiest electives.

He could look at (if possible) taking a break and using that time to raise his game (with help if needed), so he can start 3rd year at a good place as well as choosing electives wisely. He could switch to a numerate subject (eg economics or finance, engineering, physics) that would make sense for what he wishes to do after university, however all these would need some self-funding.

I would say that most importantly, if he doesn't already know, this is not unusual for degree maths, and provided he works out whether he's in the 're-learn how to do maths' or 'fly high elsewhere' camp, a rosy future is within reach. Quite possibly his 2nd year electives were not his cup of tea. There is usually a mass exodus into finance and statistics after year 1 when many students find pure and some applied areas are a literally more of an alien language that say the maths of finance or engineering. Some of the most 'alien' electives can be couched in deceptively simple and fun terms, and class numbers will be small making it an even lonelier business. So he is definitely not alone in where he is, but he does need to decide how to go somewhere better.

[topology444]

Just sitting the exams won't be enough. He needs to pass sufficiently many modules. With motivation and help he can still learn enough to pass the exams as there will be always (parts of) questions that are not that hard. Identifying these parts and for example writing down a definition correclty if you are not understanding the concept and/or the mathematical language is not easy though. It will be hard work though and perhaps not very satisfying as it is really more a matter of passing the exam than to understand/enjoying the subject. If you can afford it ask a tutor to suggest a PhD student to help him with homework/past exams. This way he is not isolated and may even enjoy the times he meets the student and work in between meetings.

[MarchingFrogs]

Is there any possibility of leaving with a HND for having completed the first two years? This information would be in his course handbook - I know that it is possible for at least some courses at some universities (and not just the non RG variety, before this is suggested). This would give him a qualification now, albeit not a degree level one, but would leave the possibility of starting again with a top-up degree, in which he could do better than third class homours or just a pass, at a later date.
www.derby.ac.uk/online/course/accounting-finance-ba-top-up-degree-online-course
(This is just an example I found at random, other subjects and providers are available).

[RandomUsernameHere]

I think I've heard of people getting some sort of diploma if they don't get enough marks for a Third, but I've also heard of people leaving with nothing if they didn't achieve a Third. This was all quite a few years ago though. I expect it varies between courses and universities, I'm sure you can find out exactly what the situation is. I hope everything works out for your son.

[Thebluehen]

Thank you for all your replies. Much to think about.

He doesn't have a depression diagnosis. To be honest, I think he's just fed up, frustrated and disheartened. We discussed whether he should see a GP last summer and he didn't want to. Although he's so quiet, I suspect if he was depressed he'd be reluctant to go even if he was depressed.

If he sits all his exams, will he get any sort of qualification at the end of it, even if he does badly? I am of the thinking that a pass is better than no pass but I'm also aware it might close some doors regarding apprenticeships in the same subject? Although there's no such thing as a maths apprenticeship so does it matter? Technically could he still do an accounting apprenticeship for example?

[RolandDeschainsGilly]

OP - Im a mature student at UoN. I’m in Year 1 of Biology. They have been amazing with me and my MH.

Does he have a diagnosis of depression? If not, the GP is the first port of call. When he’s been, he can get a summary report for free stating the diagnosis and any meds or therapy.

Then he needs to go to his personal tutor, with the report (I would advise doing a few photocopies) and his Student Support Team - I’m going assume it’s the one near the Physics building (that’s also mine.) They can point him to the right support department - he will then get Extra Support for exams such as, extra time, sitting alone in a room rather than a big exam hall, and sometimes they will alter the grade boundaries so that for example 35% becomes a pass rather than 40%.

www.nottingham.ac.uk/studentservices/support/supportforyourstudies/disabilitysupport/index.aspx

Have a look around that page and fire off some emails.

[FlipF]

LINK FOR UNISTATS

[FlipF]

I had a look on unistats for BSc (Hons) mathematics at Nottingham and it looks like 9% of students graduated with less than a 2.2. I presume this doesn't include students who dropped out of the course.
This is based on last years cohort (I think)
Anyway I thought it might be of some interest to see that your son won't be the only one in this situation.

[FlipF]

Did the Uni advise him to drop out of the third year even though he was technically allowed to carry on? I'd have thought it was extremely difficult to be able pull your marks up if you only got 45% in your second year. Depends how the marks are weighted. Is he doing well in any modules?

One of my DC did maths at a similar Uni and knew quite a few students including some of his flat mates who bombed out but still completed their degrees. He said none of them seemed to spend much time studying.
My son had to work ridiculously hard for his Maths degree. He loves the subject and puts in the work but finds degree level maths very very hard. My son found the strikes last year to be very disruptive. He was the type of student who attends every lecture and tutorial. he also didn't like the uncertainty of the situation. They kept being given different info on what was and wasn't being examined.?
I wonder if that contributed to your son doing poorly last year.

[AJPTaylor]

Just coming on to second student services. He can approach them online if needs be! He just needs to do it.honestly they will support him in making the right decision.

[MrsPatmore]

Although he is struggling, I'd try to do all I could to get him through the final exams; a tutor if you could afford it - can he advertise/afford for post grads to help or could you visit each weekend to give moral support? Something that would get him over the line. Encourage him to visit the GP - anxiety is a terrible thing and short term meds can help to relieve it (although they take a while to work). Look into transferring course maybe nearer to home.

[disneyfan83]

Also - my degree was paid for through student finance and I got £1500 in cash to help me xx

[disneyfan83]

I did a maths degree as an adult, I did 3 years I. Chester uni and by year 3, I'd had enough, I hated it and found the lectures so confusing I was having to teach myself from random text books in the library. I then got pregnant and suffered really bad morning sickness but the uni didn't care (even after I was sick during an exam) I remember how disillusioned and depressed I was, I'd always wanted this degree so to be hating it so much left me empty.

Anyway a couple of years after having my daughter I contacted the Open Uni and transferred my credits, and it was so much better! So much more enjoyable! I could work, and use the local library, I wasn't constrained to lecture times and mumbling lecturers. The work was hard but the books were clear and the online community was awesome! I found bricks and mortar uni was full of cliques depending on where you lived/how well off you were, but the open uni has none of that.

It's not for everyone, my final years study was done over two, but failing uni first time round doesn't mean the end! It could be down to the uni that he's not happy rather than the work. It definitely was for me.

I hope he sees his way through, it is worth it, no matter what route we take xxxx

[moredoll]

He needs to speak to student services and explain the situation. Ask what they advise.

www.nottingham.ac.uk/studentservices/index.aspx

It might be possible to transfer to another course. He should ask.

[Thebluehen]

I think he only gets another year of finance?

He could come home, get a job for a year save up a years uni fees I suppose and then go back to a uni commutable from home or do open university. Get the last years finance and then fund a year himself.

I think he's become quite despondent about uni in general though.

[SpeedyBojangles]

He also says the way of learning is different. At A level he just practiced questions over and over. Like you say, at uni, he needs to understand the theory.

I think this is his main issue. At A level he used memory to pass his exams. At University level you have to apply knowledge and understanding, sadly it does seem like it's probably too difficult for him which is a shame.

Can he transfer to another subject and start again in 2nd year maybe?

[Thebluehen]

Oh and he's not doing a dissertation, he chose to take extra exams instead.

[Thebluehen]

I agree it's a shame and worry how employers will see it if he leaves now.

However, I don't want his mental health to suffer.

The way I feel now I'd be over the moon if he scraped a third. How likely is it he can sit all his exams and not get a third?

[ClerkMaxwell]

30 years ago I had a friend in a similar situation to your son. She managed to complete the course (tutor helped her choose the easiest electives) . Scraped a 3rd, got a place on a postgraduate diploma for a numerate business subject. Did well enough that they let her do the masters degree and never looked back.

[topology444]

He should pick one or two questions of each weekly assignment and try to solve them. He may not be able to do it, so he should look through his lecture notes and find the relevant definitions, lemmas, theorems. Then he can go to his tutor and say that he would like to solve question x and has done the following but ran into a problem. I am sure most of his tutors will be delighted to help him during their office hours. The problem is if he goes there and says that he cannot do anything and has not tried anything because he does not know where to start, then the tutor cannot help him.
Every question he can solve and every passed exam is an achievement. It is very hard once you are in this situation and not everyone is good in finding help. It is very good though that he looks at options after/instead of his degree!

[RandomUsernameHere]

It sounds like he has got so far behind that he doesn't know where to begin to catch up. I don't think you can retake your final year, so it would seem that his options are drop out and leave with no qualification after 2 1/2 years, or carry on and try and get a third. If he does really well in his dissertation it will hopefully pull his marks up enough so he can complete the degree. It would be a shame to leave with nothing after all that time.

[Thebluehen]

Topology- he literally sent me a message today saying it's like the exam was in another language!

He's applied for a couple of higher apprenticeships over the last few days but they're top end city ones and I suspect will be difficult to get on to and this is not going to help his confidence if he gets turned down.

He says he can't ask for help because he literally doesn't know where to start with what to ask.

He also says the way of learning is different. At A level he just practiced questions over and over. Like you say, at uni, he needs to understand the theory.

He has only really made one friend on his course and he has bounced off him a bit.

The PhD student might be an option.