International Law- where to study?

[Wallywobbles]

Hope someone can help. We live in France. DD1 wants to study international law. Interested in protecting children. She has one year left at Collège so we need to start choosing a Lycee.

If she wanted to study law at a uk uni what would they be looking for in an applicant? And what Unis would be a good choice.

Will an IBac be enough or does she need to do A'levels at the same time? Does she need to do any particular kind of Bac or show extra curricular achievements? She speaks French, English, Spanish and German.

Really any pointers would be helpful.

Thanks.

[Wallywobbles]

Thanks monkey. You are a mine of information.

Effectively she'll be mid Bac for the new changes. In principle the reforms sound like a good plan from what I've heard but reality may be another thing.

[shockthemonkey]

Hi Wally, another English language qualification is what I meant.

Strangely enough, if she has straight French Bac (rather than OIB), even though she is British national and therefore English mother tongue, she may be asked to pass the IELTS or similar to prove her English level. This has happened to a few of my EMT students in the past, although some unis might waive this or even settle on a high mark in Anglais LV1 at the Bac.

I also need to correct myself regarding the Bac streams, as a colleague of mine has pointed out to me (thanks Anna) -- with your daughter still being in 4eme, she will be affected by the Bac reforms which are planned for 2021. The séries L, ES and S will go, to be replaced by a bit more flexibility in elective subjects. The compulsory subjects will be assessed by controle continu.

There's bound to be a knock-on for the OIB, although as far as I can see nothing has been announced.

If you're interested, here is some more info:

www.education.gouv.fr/cid126438/baccalaureat-2021-un-tremplin-pour-la-reussite.html

[Wallywobbles]

We are Normandie so not particularly keen on Paris although have family South West of Paris /Orly if you think we should investigate further.

[Wallywobbles]

Shock when you say another language qualification what might that be?

[shockthemonkey]

Interesting! Only send her away if she's really keen -- a good straight-Bac ES (ie no international option) may serve just as well (but she may be asked to do another English language qualification on top of it).

If you're thinking of Ile de France area, I would caution against Ermitage although sadly I think that may be the first return you get if you do a search of possibilities (schools offering OIB with boarding).

Best of luck!

[Wallywobbles]

Sorry to have disappeared. That advice is amazing and has really given her options. Now to find a Lycee that will get her the results.

@shockthemonkey thank you so much for such detailed and clear information. Knowing nothing myself this has been a crash course in options for what next.

My daughter has been reading too so hopefully we are both a lot wiser about what next. Locally I'm not sure the best Lycée offers ES with option international so if she's serious we might have to look at boarding.

[shockthemonkey]

As much as I try to gently steer my students away from London, sleep, they can't get enough of LSE for good reason as you point out (but also for a less logical reason: LSE has a special "ring" to the French ear, due to having "School" in its name reminding them of Grande Ecole and so lending extra cachet.)

I get many saying "I must study in London find me five unis in London please for Economics or Business, I don't care". I tell them "ça c'est pas un projet d'études, c'est un projet de voyage".

Although I doubt that OP's DD wants to qualify in two jurisdictions, I still think the dual degree will suit and interest her, because of her profile and also for reasons pointed out by user267.

OP is having a think about all this and may well be back in due course.

[Needmoresleep]

Shock surely it depends on what she wants to do.

OP, who seems to have disappeared, simply says her daughter wants to protect children. If say, she was hoping to get a job with UNHCR, UNICEF or an international charity working with children and young people, LSE is a good place to have on your CV, with scope to take some interesting options, and law is a useful subject. If she wants to qualify as a lawyer in two jurisdictions then your alternatives might be better.

Long ago I spent time working at the UN in New York and was astonished how many LSE graduates I met, from Iceland to the PRC. Ditto when I had a job which involved regular contact with UNHCR people working in the field (with quite a lot of unaccompanied minors), had often passed through the LSE and quite a lot seemed to have law somewhere in their background.

One thing perhaps to guard against is that London has a large French population and so little incentive for French students to mix more widely. Though this may depend on degree. At UG level the French on DCs course (economics so lots of would-be Parisian banquiers) seemed to stick together, perhaps more than any other group. At Masters level, with a much higher proportion of Europeans, this is less the case. Again it depends, on whether a student would feel happier being able to remain in an essentially French milieu, or to be forced to mix more widely.

[shockthemonkey]

OP is looking for law with an international dimension. LSE is great for law but does not offer International Law or combinations such as English and French law. But I put it on my list as it does not require LNAT and may be a good hedge for a very strong student who does not have LNAT support at home.

Durham also does not offer a combination of English and European or French law.

If you're careful with the PS though, you can make it work for both types of degree -- English law with French law AND straight (English) law degrees

[user1494050295]

I vouch for LSE. Pm me if you like

[TimbuktuTimbuktu]

Ucl law with French law would be a good bet. It includes a year at the Sorbonne. I think if I was seriously considering practicing internationally that would be what I would pick. Otherwise look at:

Oxbridge
LSE
Kings
Durham
Bristol
Nottingham
Exeter. Etc

[shockthemonkey]

I would strongly suggest the Bac ES.

Unis in the UK do not require the Bac S for law applicants, and the maths will bring her marks right down.

The maths in Bac ES is much easier and much more relateable for students -- they can see the point of it. So my son, who was struggling in maths through Seconde, rose to close to the top of his class after going the ES route... and scored 19/20 in his final Bac for maths. I reiterate, he is no maths genius and would have scored poorly in maths had he gone the S route, which as you know would have had dire consequences for his moyenne générale.

Bubbles, the French Bac is marked out of 20. You're citing IB scores there. For a very good law school in the UK, a prediction of 16 to 17 would be good. Here are some data from this cycle just gone, re admissions criteria for French Bac students:

UCL Law with French Law -- 15.75 MG with key subject scores of 17, 15 and 15 plus a good LNAT

King's London English Law and French Law -- 16 MG plus LNAT

Oxford Law with Law Studies in Europe -- 16 MG plus an excellent LNAT score (30 minimum in the multiple choice section)

LSE Law -- 17 MG but no LNAT

Warwick Law with French Law -- 16 MG, no LNAT

Bristol Law with Study in Cont Eur -- 16-17 MG plus LNAT

Kent English Law and French Law -- 14 MG no LNAT

Exeter English Law and French Law -- 14 MG no LNAT

Nottingham Law with European Law -- 14 MG plus LNAT

Note the competitiveness of some of these courses -- as high as 15 applications per place on one of them. This means that a prediction just a little higher than their standard offers will help impress (but above all, a very strong LNAT will be what gets you past the first "tri").

[Needmoresleep]

Bubbles is there a reason why you have not included the LSE. Given their international outlook and strength in social policy it would seem as an obvious option.

[BubblesBuddy]

I would look at the better Law schools here and see what Int Bac points score is required. One would assume 38 plus. The advantage of A levels is that you can do 3 you are good at and drop Maths if you need to! Few students drop out at top universities here.

The universities mentioned above are the best places to start and are valued by recruiters. Oxbridge still opens very many doors. Other than that, consider Durham too. The vast majority of Barristers are from a very narrow group of universities! Other employers are less choosy but some will not offer much of a salary either.

I did think the op’s DD wanted to practice abroad, after reference to language skills, as well as here so that’s why I wondered if it was possible. I know that universities offer a year abroad to study Law elsewhere. It was the value of this, career wise, I was wondering about.

[Wallywobbles]

Gosh. Thank you all. She is at the top performing collège in west France and is probably in the top 1/3 of her year. The school get 85% minimum of its students through the Brevet with a "mention". So academically she's ok.

My concern is with the law courses at Uni in France. Drop out rate is very very high. 70% + and the students who do better are all coming from Bac S. This is where her problem lies in that Bac S requires a high grade in maths and it's her weakest subject.

So we are now at the point where we need to choose the right lycée and to do that we need to know what her options are after the Bac and to make sure we aren't shutting any doors. And with a view that she might thrive better at a UK Uni. So taking a Bac that would get her where she wants to go.

Your posts have given me an idea of what we need to read up on. If it's ok with you all I'll read up, talk to her and come back with more questions and answers.

[shockthemonkey]

BubblesBuddy: Do barristers and solicitors actually work in the French system and the English system at the same time? Can anyone say that they do?

Yes I know of one but it's very difficult to do, of limited use, and I don't get the impression that this is what the OP's DD is aiming for. The combined law degree is often interesting for students of the OP's DD's profile, and useful for the reasons pointed out by User267.

Still, until we hear more from the OP re our various questions we are only guessing.

[TheresaHay]

DS is going LLB and Maitrise en Droit with a year at Uni in France, could that be an option?

[User267]

I don't think anyone is suggesting that the OPs daughter seeks a degree covering Law and e.g. French Law in order to practice in both jurisdictions. Instead the suggestion is that she looks at degrees that give her a qualifying UK degree with the opportunity to spend a year abroad studying the law of a different jurisdiction. Lots of degrees offer an option such as this e.g. Warwick UCL or Oxford Often students do this partly to improve language skills and to experience life in another country, that aspect may not be as important to the OPs daughter if she is already in France though she might apply elsewhere. The other reason is that it challenges your understanding of a legal system if you gain a greater understanding of how a civil jurisdiction works in contrast to the common law approach. That is beneficial in itself and also can be useful if working in international law as you have a greater understanding of why civil lawyers approach some problems differently to common lawyers. So the idea is that suggestion is that this might be an attractive option for UG study not that she seeks to qualify in both jurisdictions.

[flyingplum]

In terms of career, being a high flying IHL/IHRL lawyer - the next Amal clooney - is obviously v challenging. But other routes - NGO work, UN (especially possible with the languages) and so on. Not as straightforward a path as LPC, magic circle training contract, but not impossible.

[flyingplum]

The people I knew who did it when I was an undergrad have ended up qualifying here, but working for international firms and very much using their civil law knowledge. I think most of them did it originally just because it seemed like a string to their bow.

[BubblesBuddy]

Do barristers and solicitors actually work in the French system and the English system at the same time? Can anyone say that they do? I struggle to see how this is possible. Are they able to do the equivalent of the LLP or Barristers qualification in both countries? I genuinely do not know the answer.

All the lawyers you hear about who practice in humanitarian or human rights seem to be based here. It’s also fearsomely difficult to get into this work. Everyone wants to do it!

[flyingplum]

Good UK law schools look for strong academic profile, and an interest in law as an academic subject and having read around the subject, not just as a means to an end (though a specific applied reason also helps a personal statement). Some kind of engagement with the profession also useful - work experience of some kind, or involvement with the 'type' of work and area she's interested in (though many students come to us with nothing more than a bit of experience shadowing/making tea in the local solicitor's office).

I assume that when you say 'protecting children' you mean perhaps in an int'l humanitarian or refugee law? International law, as has been pointed out, doesn't really exist as an undergraduate degree (and I wouldn't particularly recommend it even if it did), but if she is interested in practising in the future, I would suggest she take an LLB. Given her linguistic ability, she might want to look into a 'Law with X language' programme (which after often undersubscribed). There are also a few institutions which do a cross-qualification - so a qualifying law degree in the UK, and a (for example, the most common format) a French qualification too.

Outside of Oxbridge and London, she might be interested in Bristol and Nottingham, which have excellent reputations for int'l law of various colours at a research level, and offer modules for undergrads (as do most institutions, but if you can be taught by field leaders...why not?).

[shockthemonkey]

As for which unis, you'd need to give us some idea of how academic your DD is. What did she get in her Brevet?

The OIB is highly respected and as a bilingual, bi-cultural school-leaving qualification it gives students a truly international profile.

She can also get in with a good Bac plus a good English language qualification such as IELTS or Cambridge Advanced.

I'm not a huge fan of the IB personally but of course that is very respected and will serve her well for entry into any UK uni.

[shockthemonkey]

There are some good courses out there that combine English law with French law in undergrad.

Can your DD study the Option Internationale du Bac? It's the full French Bac (S, ES or L) with two A-level equivalents thrown in: history and English literature. Joint examined by CIE and the Education Nationale.

If she's in collège then transitioning to OIB will be easier than transitioning to IB.

[BubblesBuddy]

if she wants to work as a barrister specialising in children’s law (family law) then the best university she can get to is the way forward. People don’t seem to work in France and the Uk. If she wants to work in the uk, then a suitable degree and qualification here is probably the better route. Children Work is considered family, not international. Criminal is where there is a criminal case in the criminal courts. Family is heard in the family courts. By doing a degree or a GDL, most young people work out the exact route and specialism they want and how to go about it.