No point thinking about Oxbridge?

[MissTakexxx]

DD has just started the sixth form at her school and there's a lot of talk about who's going to apply to Oxbridge. Lots of her peers achieved 8 to 10 As at GCSE but DD only got 4 As, 3 As and 3 Bs.

With those GCSE results, is there no point in her even beginning to think about Oxbridge as an option? Her school usually get about 30 to 40 Upper 6th into Oxbridge each year but most of those have 10 to 12 A*s at GCSE. Compared with them she's not going to shine but there are always exceptions?

[MissTakexxx]

Thanks for the further input everyone. By 'contact hours' I really meant the intensity of teaching at Oxbridge (in my day, 2 one to one tutorials per week for which you needed to produce a long essay, plus several lectures, an occasional seminar, some lab work in the first year and then ending with 10 three hour exams across 5 days plus producing research/thesis and 2 long extended essays for the final degree.

By comparison, I had friends at non Oxbridge unis who only needed to produce 2 essays per term and could attend lectures - or not - and a seminar of about 30 students once a term, where they didn't really need to contribute. They then had 3 exams only at the end of 3 years and also a thesis - but nothing like as much intensive work as was expected where I was.

I think this has made me assume - probably incorrectly - that you 'get your money's worth' at Oxbridge compared to non-Oxbridge unis and I've been trying to advise DD. She's not at all fixated on Oxbridge and realises her chances of getting a place anyway are very slim but as most of her particular friends will apply, she'd wondered whether she could follow that route too. She likes the idea of a collegiate system and the one to one or two to one tutoring model too.

I doubt she's thinking about 'money's worth' however and may prefer a less intense time but as I'm expecting to fund her through her 3 years there, I didn't want her to rule this out as a possible destination.

I will be guided by the school too and see what they think, as time goes on. If only she had any idea what she wanted to do in life, that would be a good starting point. Yes, it's a very selective school and they do tend to get between 30 and 40 Oxbridge places per year but I think those who apply tend to be mega clever - as well as hard working - eg some of her peers are intending to take 4 to 5 A levels and an EPQ and will likely get top grades.

[Garlicansapphire]

It must be a very very highly selective school if they get 30 - 40 students into Oxbridge every year - thats extraordinary! Given their expertise I really would take their advice.

Plus its best to choose the uni based on the course you want to do and follow from there. You've not indicated any reason why she might particularly want to go - there are plus sides and down sides too. I do know quite a lot of very successful Oxbridge graduates in very well paid jobs but they are all very hard working and super intelligent. I think it really can open doors but hard work counts hugely too - which is probably the reason they were at Oxbridge in the first place.

So focus on what she wants to do - study wise and whether she really wants to work that hard to try for it.

[corythatwas]

In a non-Oxbridge uni, would she get the same kind of hours teaching input

I can't say exactly how many hours of scheduled contact hours she would get at different universities, but she is bound to do a lot better if she understands how the whole interchange between scheduled contact/available contact/own time works. The whole point of a university degree, at least in the Humanities/Social Sciences, is to turn the student into somebody who can work independently, problem-solving, accessing the right help and producing something that is their own.

You don't do that by failing to provide adequate guidance. But equally you don't do it by standing over them every hour of the day. The former would be like a swimming coach throwing his beginners into the pool and expecting them to win the butterfly race. The latter would be like prospective athletes spending the whole year just watching their coach swim and never actually entering the pool themselves: you'd hardly expect them to turn out Olympic winners through that method.

I have taught English literature in the past. I think I give rather good lectures and plan seminars that genuinely make the students think of the texts in a new way. I think my essay feedback, as well as being prompt, is productive and to the point. But there isn't going to be a whole lot of point if they don't get the time to read Ulysses or whatever before the seminar starts. And there won't be a whole lot of point if they don't get the time to really work through their reading through writing their own analysis afterwards, seeing that learning to analyse and write well are among the most important things they are supposed to take from our course.

(How would parents like us to do this? Sit in the room while they are reading, like some kind of prep invigilator, just to be able to say they had contact hours? Or read the whole of Ulysses aloud to them?)

My job was to show them how to read Ulysses, be available at the end of an email if they struggled in the process, let them bounce ideas of me in seminar, give individual advice re essay writing and then provide individual feedback on their essays which they were then invited into my office to discuss individually.

[ErrolTheDragon]

Applying to Oxbridge will be an awful lot of work.

It's really not. At least - the sort of extra work which can make a difference is the 'supra curricular' stuff - the activities beyond their GCSEs which demonstrate their genuine engagement and enthusiasm. If the OPs DD doesn't know what she wants to do and any interest in oxbridge is largely based on getting a more lucrative career, this could be more of a factor than the gcses. Whereas travelledTheWorlds DS sounds more convincing. Fwiw, on the STEM side, you certainly don't need a huge rack of A* at gcse - DD had them for her STEM subjects, some As and then Bs for the Englishes and German - she's about to start a camb. MEng (which is one of the high applicant per offer and offer grade subjects.)

The one thing thats sure is if they don't apply they won't get an offer - they've got 4 other choices and it really isn't that much additional work vs a strong application for other good courses. DDs gcses were only a bit above average for her GS but she took the view 'nothing venture, nothing gained'.

[LRDtheFeministDragon]

user, the OP's DD isn't applying for STEM subjects. In the subjects she's considering applying for she might well not have one-to-one supervisions/tutorials, though the numbers would still be very small.

[ExConstance]

DS1 went to Oxford, studied PPE got civil service fast stream job and now has had his first promotion, he is happy in his work and enjoyed Uni.

DS2 went to a northern Russell Group uni, studied a creative subject and also found his first job very easily, lives 5 mins away from DS1 and is also very happy.

I think if you have an interest in a subject that is very "Oxbridge" you might do better in a related career, but all of the better universities have some subjects where they lead. For true creativity some of the newer universities are worth looking at.

[user918273645]

LRD: the number of contact hours for STEM courses at Oxbridge can be lower than the number at other universities. However, as you know, the Oxbridge contact hours involve small tutorial groups, unlike most other universities. So one cannot judge just by number of hours.

In practice I suspect that most Oxbridge humanities students do have fewer contact hours (they don't all attend the optional lectures) but this is irrelevant given the one on one tutorials.

[Needmoresleep]

As an LSE alum, I never got the sense many doors were closed by not going to Oxbridge, and this was many years ago. Not just the economists and lawyers. I knew plenty of people who blagged their way into good careers by talking up the economics/maths content of relatively unrelated degrees. Good London Universities have very strong international recognition.

[LRDtheFeministDragon]

Ah, perhaps I simply failed to see the doors, along with everyone else I knew and everyone I've taught.

The people I know who got fancy careers were either 1) people who knew quite precisely what they wanted to do and went for it, 2) people who had parents who knew precisely what they wanted their children to do, and steered them to it and 3) people who made a big effort to figure out which career they really wanted and then went for it.

I don't know anyone who bumbled through Oxbridge and came out with an unexpected shiny career.

[goingagain]

Or they certainly did. It opens so many doors.

[goingagain]

Honestly, I think city careers sort of do just fall into your lap much more easily at Oxbridge.

(Oxbridge alumni)

[LRDtheFeministDragon]

Oxbridge courses often have low numbers of contact hours

I'm not so sure about this. Contact hours include a high proportion of optional contact time - eg., lectures might well not be mandatory - but I think contact hours are quite high TBH. If you went to a lecture in each slot offered, plus your regular college teaching, in my subject you'd clock up 22 hours of contact time in a week quite easily.

That's just a quibble, though, since I don't have an enormous pool of comparison to know what contact hours other universities offer, and because I broadly agree that this focus on Oxbridge seems a bit strange to me. What is a 'city career' and why wouldn't it be well served by LSE or wherever? I know there are people who use Oxbridge very successfully as a springboard into certain types of career, but I think you have to know which career it is rather than just thinking something will fall into your lap.

[user918273645]

would she get the same kind of hours teaching input?

Number of teaching hours is a pretty irrelevant statistic in judging quality of courses. As pp wrote, Oxbridge courses often have low numbers of contact hours, but in small groups, and Oxbridge students are encouraged to do a lot of independent work right from the outset.

I'm a bit surprised that you would think that world leading universities like UCL, LSE, Imperial etc might not be offering highly respected undergraduate courses. Oxford and Cambridge are not the only leading universities in the UK.

[PetalMettle]

I got 3a*, 4a and 3b and got into Cambridge. However I had to work bloody hard when I was there. If she doesn't know what she wants to do and therefore would like free time to do extra curricular stuff somewhere else may be beyter

[SuperRainbows]

I would have thought she would get more hours in a non-Oxbridge uni.

My DS went to Cambridge and had very short teaching hours and 8 week terms.

[MissTakexxx]

Alreadytaken, she loves her school and has had friends there from the age of 4, so wouldn't want to leave at this point. She's just dithering between making a hobby a career or pursuing something with security, that pays well and keeping her hobbies for pleasure only.

She thought that a degree from Oxbridge might improve her chances of a 'city career' - whatever that means to her. I think she wants good earnings and a career path but I've also talked to her about quality of life - maybe less earning potential but enjoying the day to day job she might do. If only she knew what she wanted to do.

As I have no experience of non-Oxbridge universities and her friends and wider family have Oxbridge aspirations and/or experience, she began to contemplate that route but isn't sure her GCSEs are good enough to make it a viable option. She's actually quite academic - just not the highest flier in her particular school cohort and prefers and is better at arts than STEM subjects - unlike the majority of her peers.

In a non-Oxbridge uni, would she get the same kind of hours teaching input? I think that's been one concern for me if she doesn't go the Oxbridge route, especially as I'll be funding her.

[alreadytaken]

why dont you move her to a different school? Instead of trying to push her into a model that isnt where her talents lie send her somewhere that would nurture her skills and guide her towards something that would suit her.

[MissTakexxx]

She's at a very selective school, Mrsmuddles, so I think is less likely to be accepted at Oxbridge with her results.

Silky, she has mentioned thinking about Oxbridge but mainly because so many of her friends are wanting to go and because of my own links to both places.

I don't think she's exactly passionate about cinematography, Silky - only uncertain really about what kind of career to pursue and whether to turn a hobby into a career. I considered this too at her age but in the end kept hobbies as hobbies and did something completely unrelated as a career.

I thought if she just did something she's fairly keen on at uni and then that would give her time to think about careers afterwards and so why not try Oxbridge, especially as I feel she'd get her money's worth there, with all the intense tutoring. But if she'd not be happy there, then that's fine.

However, happy or not, I don't know if she'd actually get in. I only 'slipped through the net' as an undergraduate because my school was trying to send a candidate - me - for the first time ever. I then got into the 'other place' too probably because I had the undergraduate degree from the rival uni. It was all very different in my day and I applied via arts A levels and went on to do a science.

She knows that without Maths A level, she can't do Economics but they didn't advise people to do Maths A level unless they got A* in Further Maths and took GCSE Maths early - and DD didn't.

[LRDtheFeministDragon]

She has only just started in the sixth form. She has plenty of time to think, and it is normal at this stage to be open-minded.

Her grades don't rule out Oxbridge at all, and (as others say), it's only one line on her UCAS application, so not a big deal.

It is really hard, at her age, to work out how to make her interests add up to the degree she wants to take, let alone the job she wants to do. IMO what is easier is to work out whether or not any Oxbridge degree looks interesting to her. If one does, she should apply. GCSE grades will be one factor considered, but not the only one.

[annandale]

Exactly what silkpyjamas said. Is there any reason why she is not putting 100% into what is needed for film and cinematography now?

[Travelledtheworld]

My son got very similar GCSE results but has his heart set on Oxbridge He is preparing himself for a Physics Aptitude test as I speak. He is capable of A*/A if he stays focused and stops gaming. Which he has so far this term.

[BasiliskStare]

"She doesn't really know what she wants to do at uni"

This more than GCSE results would say more about aiming for any university which interviews ( not just Oxford or Cambridge) to me ( I am not a tutor) .

I am pragmatic so people may disagree with me - do one step at a time - get the university place ( if that is what she wants ) . Other than properly vocational courses - so Medicine / Engineering or e.g. Maths / Economics - some courses like History / Philosophy / Theology show an aptitude for logical thinking and will be useful in a slightly different way.

[gamerpigeon]

If she's an all rounder she might prefer the Scottish system anyway. You don't have to specialise so early there.

A few Bs wouldn't be the end of her chances but she would need to be able to demonstrate enthusiasm for her chosen subject and have cracking submitted work / good entry test scores (if relevant)

[Allthebestnamesareused]

She probably won't be able to study Economics as a degree as most degree courses require Maths A level. However as an aside Theology is generally undersubscribed. Philosophy at Oxford requires you to have taken their own pre-test. So if she is shining at A level in her subjects they will be more interested in her pre-testing than her GCSE results.

[2014newme]

@Ttbb I've heard that you can't get students loans for courses abroad