Is an MEng better than a BEng?

[SundaysFundays]

That really. I know an MEng means you've got a higher qual (Masters) but in the working world, does it really make a difference to getting a job, interviews etc does it make your CV stand out?

I like the idea of a 3 or 4 yr engineering degree and then deciding mature on what they would like to do a Masters in (if at all), but the MEng means you can do it all in one go. However it also seems such a long slog (5yrs) and perhaps one might want to do a masters in something different later on, seems like a waste of time, but maybe not.

[bojorojo]

Are there really so many good young applicants these days who do not go to university for BEng or MEng? Many more young people are clued up about courses and most parents can find out too. My DH's Consultancy did take school leavers (18 year olds) a while ago to train as Technicians/Engineers part-time but quickly found the brightest had gone to university. They reverted to graduate recruitment.

My DH's IEng employees are a bit older. They have had to come through the long route and they are valued. The problem is that a Consultancy full of IEng qualified peope is not going to hit the target market to make lots of money! If you think of Consultancies, you should think of the highest qualified and experienced people who can sort out the most difficult and challenging engineering problems, for a good financial return for everyone! It takes all levels to run the practice effectively and everyone is valued but in the end, some are valued more than others. It is the same in most professions.

[Canyousewcushions]

I never said that incorporated engineer status is irrelevant, what i actually said is that more clients need to recognise it, and that i have a lot of admiration for those who come through the longer winded routes as they undoubtedly require more work and time than the straight forward route i took. The system is unfairly geared towards those of us with educated parents who are in the know about getting to uni and looking ahead to professional qualifications before we've even left school. At no point did I say anything which could have been taken as judging you unless you have a bit of a chip on your shoulder- because fundamentally i admire your determination!! Your route is just as valid as mine- but harder work and so not something i would advise an 18 year old looking at degree courses to follow. I find it sad that you feel the need to undermine a complete stranger on the Internet- i got through it quickly but i still worked for it- and its just as valid a CEng as yours will be.

The problem with IEng is that although its supposed to be an alternative to CEng, the criteria are generally the same but met to a lower level to achieve the former. I think the concept of differentiating between those with technical vs management aspirations is good, but there is a problem with how it is currently being done. It's difficult to see how IEng can be valued as an equally valued alternative unless it offers something different from the CEng. And for me the big problem is also that clients in my industry are too slow to recognise it- the contracts I deal with demand CEng for a lot of roles, but give no recognition to IEng. There needs to be change from the top for IEng to gain the recognition and value that it should have. But until this happens i think youngsters heading into the indsutry are better to get academic qualifications which opens up the simple routes to chartership.

[bojorojo]

In my DHs area as a Consulting Engineer, Incorporated is not the same as Chartered. It is the lesser qualification and the Incorporated Engineers cannot sign off some structural work for example. If the work cannot be signed off, you cannot actually be a Consultant Structural Engineering practice! I cannot see that it is in the interests of the Engineering profession as a whole to dumb down. What other profession does this? It is right that there are a variety of qualifications but it is also right there is a hierarchy. Germany, for example, values its highly qualified engineers. We need to strive for the same recognition here.

[chemenger]

In all these discussions it's important to remember that the engineering disciplines are very different. In some, incorporated engineers are relatively common and recognised, in others this is not a well known career path. In some areas chartered status is seen as essential for promotion above a certain level, in others there is no particular value to it in the eyes of employers. It is impossible to generalise. In my own discipline (chemical) where competition for graduate jobs is likely to be intense for the next few years I recommend the MEng to any student who can do it. Alternatively, a BEng with specialist MSc can also give a competitive advantage.

[Glitteryunicorn]

Passive aggressive? Nope just my experience but as my pp implied I judge you and your 4 whole years of experience the same way you judge my hard worked for professional registration irrelevant.

Incorporated has not replaced the old technician status, technicians may become registered under the Eng. Tech registration category. Your dh probably finds the Incorporated engineers lack the motivation to "move up to chartered status" because they don't need to, incorporated and chartered are on par with each other they represent different aspects of the wider engineering field but an IEng does not need to "upgrade" unless they feel they want to, the only reason I'm "upgrading" is because my boss refuses to take me seriously as a woman without it despite older more senior male engineers only holding the IEng registration.

[bojorojo]

Depends on the course studied regarding the qualification.

DH is old school BEng when only academics did MEng and it was a completely separate year. He was CEng at 24 which is virtually impossible now.

MEng is more desirable now as the route is quicker to CEng, providing you have a good employer! BEng is not really good enough for many Consultants and Incorporated Engineer has replaced the old Technician status. Most professions do not recognise a lower qualification as being identical to a higher qualification. You cannot be a Doctor after 3 years. Consultants would say they are the equivalent of medical Doctors. DH has found a few of his Incorporated Engineers lack the motivation to move up to Chartered status. They are well paid but unfortunately lack ambition. They will not be future Directors though! They will hit a ceiling because they will always be subordinate to the CEng employees and Directors.

I am not sure how much a year in industry is worth the additional year. There are opportunities for work in the holidays and there is no indication MEng graduates do not get jobs without the year in industry. However, if it appeals, do it. It can get your foot through the door! One of my DHs grad engineers did do a year in industry - with them in one of their satellite consultancies but none of the others they have recruited in recent years have done. What they do have is the ability to do the work and learn!

[GnomeDePlume]

ImSoPretty chartered status certainly exists:

www.bcs.org/category/5779

Different institutions offer different degrees. The chartered status comes from education and experience.

[ImSoPretty]

If a person studies something like Computer engineering, Software engineering or Systems engineering, do they still need to get Chartered? Do they also get an MEng/BEng or is it an Msc?

[GnomeDePlume]

On the placement year: students are expected to apply for their own placements. Most unis assist this but the student is expected to do the running around for it. They wont just be handed a placement. The placement are generally paid (though not always desperately well). There is also some additional student loan available to help fund living costs.

DD1 is currently on placement (different field). She is able to fund a small flat and a car and is keeping her head above water but there wont be funds for a big holiday at the end.

[NotMeNoNo]

I've been reviewing graduate CVs over the last couple of months. They all have MEng or MSc. I'd only recommend a BEng if you want to go straight to a particular MSc (at different uni maybe) in a niche subject, and make that decision after the 2nd year with a better idea of interests.

It's not easy to get either chartered or incorporated, and it's substantially more of a PITA the later you leave it. If you can do the straightforward Masters degree-training agreement-professional review route (e.g. for Civils) don't complicate life unnecessarily.

A lot of MSc courses now attract mostly overseas students or people wanting a change of direction, now that MEng are common for UK students. Subject of much beard tearing in the learned community who all qualified in the BSc days and see an MSc as the gold standard.

[Canyousewcushions]

Glittery- ouch! Bit of a passive aggressive dig there!

Chartership was never designed to be the pinnacle of an engineer's career, it was always supposed to be something which can be achieved fairly early on and built on as skills continue to be honed through your career with cpd. 30-odd years ago it was normal to do it 3-5 years after graduation, but its become more protracted over the years, I guess in part becuase it does require a degree of dedication whatever route is taken.

However, as it's a qualification which is important for most people who want a career in engineering, there's a lot to be said for taking the route which will get you there with the least amount of hassle. For me I am glad I took the most straight forward route and wasn't left trying to juggle it all around family life. There are other routes which are just as valid, but also harder to achieve so if someone is debating which degree to take I would always advise that looking beyond the degree and making sure you are lined up to get your professional qualifications is a good idea.

Getting chartered does also increase your earnings and open up more opportunities for progression so it's also not as simple as the less time at uni+ more time at work =more money equation either.

[Glitteryunicorn]

IEng is under valued in general and is an issue many engineers have with the current registration levels with CEng incorrectly being seen as the better or more advanced registration level when in reality they reflect different roles within the scope of engineering. This leads to engineers such as myself having to "upgrade" unnecessarily.

Personally I think being able to become chartered with 4 years experience post grad which in reality is only 2 years actually work experience post completion of a graduate scheme means that chartered status has really ceased to be anything meaningful it's just a tick box that as you say clients require and companies like because they can charge you out for more.

As a professional individual you have to decide what's more important to you and your career; personally I've found the best engineers I've worked with young and old have taken the time to learn and hone their technical capabilities they don't see the additional learning as a chore as it's generally something that they are interested in and gives them a deeper technical understanding of a specific area or field.

[Canyousewcushions]

GlitteryUnicorn is right, there are other routes to becoming chartered but they do require more work and more motivation to do them. I did an MEng and went straight through to CEng 4 years later. The folk i know who didnt have MEng degrees took a lot longer to get chartered/do extra study on day release while working part time/ additional work to get chartered through technical report routes. And this extra effort often coincides with a time of life when people are considering starting a family which makes it even more effort.

In my industry IEng doesnt count for much in practical terms as clients require full chartered status for many roles so firms really want graduates to aim for CEng. Until clients get better at recognising IEng as a thing in itself it will never really compete with CEng in my industry. This may not be true in other sectors, however.

I have a lot of admiration for the people with the determination to go through longer winded routes and/or day release etc but i think that one extra year at uni to get an MEng is by far the simplest and easiest route into becomming fully qualified.

[Glitteryunicorn]

I wouldn't say an MEng is a more accepted route to a graduate job only one of five graduates in our office have an MEng and we are seeing a big shift towards apprenticeships again. I've never worked anywhere (I worked contract for 8 years) where a MEng is a requirement for graduates including the firm where I was a graduate. I'm in a "pure" engineering role by which I think you mean a technical discipline.

As for chartered status being more straightforward to attain I already hold registration as an incorporated engineer and the small amount of additional evidence required to prove the further learning requirement is neither here nor there in the grand scheme of the application process. If you keep a comprehensive CPD file like you're supposed to.

If you are interested in studying a masters for the academic interest in the subject itself then it is worthwhile but I wouldn't advise anyone to undertake a masters purely because it may prevent them from pursuing a career path before they've even started because I don't believe that to be true across the industry as a whole.

[cakeandteajustforme]

I am a chartered engineer who works for a major U.K. Employer of engineers. Many good points raised already.

To add, I think your DS should consider what career path he is or may be interested in by the time he graduates. Lots of engineers I studied with (myself included) ended up at big 4 consultancies etc rather than an engineering firm for some part of the first few years of working life. Those companies usually require a masters level qualification to get to interview stage, so better to not shut the door on that option before youve begun.

If he is sure he wants to pursue pure engineering, then an MEng is the more accepted means to graduate jobs with a straightforward path to CEng. It makes life easier. I actually studied in Australia where my four year BEng is rated equivalent to an MEng here and it hasn't held me back - but it would have been simpler if it was what everyone else has!

[2014newme]

I have hears,same Re Dyson but it's still very good experience so I wouldn't let it out you off

[Enelya]

Just to let you know Dyson have a reputation as a challenging employer... I don't want to derail the tread though, so feel free to pm me!

[User006point5]

Enelya Yes, that's certainly what I'm hoping... well, not that expensive safari, of course.

This thread has been really useful for me, so I really appreciate all these knowledgeable comments.

DS has also applied to the Dyson higher apprenticeship scheme, but that seems only to be a BEng. I don't know how far he'll get with that application, though.

[Glitteryunicorn]

To clarify further learning to masters level you need to demonstrate a level of knowledge within your chosen field which any engineer in a position to be applying for chartered status should easily have achieved.

Additional evidence is submitted with your application e.g. an enhanced CV or technical report.

Details of the requirements for registration can be found on the engineering council website in the UKSPEC for professional registration.

I'm a registed mentor with one of the engineering institutes and currently submitting my own application for chartered status with a BSc post 1997.

[SundaysFundays]

I think Glittery has just thrown in a curve ball into the whole discussion. I hadn't thought of the points you quite rightly raised. Hmmm...

[Glitteryunicorn]

You don't need a MEng to become chartered you can prove it through further learning to masters level (I'm in the process of doing this myself) or many companies will sponsor you to complete a masters at a later date which may benefit your career more as you might wish to pursue a certain specialisation or move into management rather than stay in a technical role.
My own technical areas of interest have changed quite a bit over the course of my career.

Realistically if you come out of a 5 year degree course you are in no better position than those with a BEng career wise but those individuals will have 2 years more work experience and less debt than you.

[BoJolly]

DS1 did a 5 year MEng at Brunel university, which included a year in the industry. He was offered employment before he did his final year, but it was the project he did for his Masters that got him the job he wanted.

I don't know if things have changed now but the advantage of him signing up for a 5 year course meant he could get student finance for all of it. If he had done a BEng and then done Masters at a later date - he would have had to finance the Masters himself.

[Enelya]

User don't forget he will get paid for this year in industry. I paid for all my final year off the proceeds and also had a months Safari . Admittedly I was under the lower fees system but he should still make a profit and boost his employability no end

[chemenger]

The good thing is that he will be paid while on his year in industry, some companies pay their interns pretty well. (I'm assuming that's the case, we don't allow our placement students to go on unpaid placements in industry).

You do need an MEng or a BEng plus MSc or equivalent to meet the educational requirements of chartered status.

[chemenger]

I've just realised I may have implied that Manchester no longer has an integrated year in Industry, I was trying to say that I don't know if they still do, I have no reason to believe they don't (but I can't be bothered to look it up).