Facilitating subjects - your views/experiences

[MoorPeople]

Hello

DD (year 11) is currently looking at A level options. She can do 3 (4 not allowed for anyone); there is no option of IB within reasonable distance. She is currently favouring Economics, Philosophy and Psychology. Her school say this would be fine, but I am worried about the lack of any facilitating subjects.

Are facilitating subjects important, or is it just the Russell Group trying to make it a 'thing'. Would the options DD is looking at be considered strong enough subjects to take her further without say English or History? She doesn't know what she wants to do degree-wise just yet, possibly looking at some major/minor/tripart kind of degree as she finds it hard to pin down to one subject! She is currently predicted mainly As with some A* at GCSE. She might get the odd B if she doesn't put the work in!

Ta for your views.

[senua]

If in doubt, choose a subject that has been around for at least a hundred years! It will have obtained gravitas by then.

[Ciutadella]

Ah - I also cross posted Atia! Interestingly, I wouldn't think philosophy or economics A level meant 'not aiming for highest universities'.

That is the other concern of course - are there in fact 'off list' unspoken gradations, so that in reality, whatever the lists say, Class Civ and Philosophy are regarded as a bit of a 'not proper' subject, compared with History or English Literature? If so, how do we find out; and do the teachers/Heads of Sixth know this?

[Needmoresleep]

Ciutadella, there is probably no substitute for reading entry requirements on individual University websites. LSE, as suggested earlier, has fgone from being indifferent to encouraging about economics A level.

Or to paraphrase Senua, you could look at sixth form subjects offered by schools that have been around 100 years or more. DS' old school (big name, academic and really old) offers economics and philosophy (not an easy option at all) and history of art, but not psychology. I suspect this is typical.

[senua]

and do the teachers/Heads of Sixth know this?

From anecdote on here, a scary number seem not to know. Rely on MN instead.

It can get very complicated. Sometimes Universities look at subjects, sometimes they look at grades. It may seem a good idea to do 'proper' subjects but if you end up with BBB in proper as opposed to AAA in not-quite-so-posh then perhaps picking a combination from both lists might be a judicious selection. You don't need all subjects to be facilitating.

[Ciutadella]

I agree - no substitute for reading the course requirements. I suppose what I'm thinking is that reading the course requirements may not be enough - if you're aiming for eg Obridge, Durham, is Class Civ in fact regarded as less 'impressive' than History even though that is never made explicit?
That may not matter too much if you will be in the 'uncapped' results and are not aiming for top 5 - don't know which these are, but you know what I sort of mean! - but if you're aiming for 'the top' (not my view, but generally perceived!), are you still disadvantaged by some unspoken rules? I don't know the answer.

[AtiaoftheJulii]

Interestingly, I wouldn't think philosophy or economics A level meant 'not aiming for highest universities'.

That's why I said "that combination"

That is the other concern of course - are there in fact 'off list' unspoken gradations, so that in reality, whatever the lists say, Class Civ and Philosophy are regarded as a bit of a 'not proper' subject, compared with History or English Literature?

My dd did Class Civ (and no Latin/Greek) and is now doing Classics at Oxford, so as long as your general profile is good, and you've accounted for the entry requirements of your chosen course, you should be fine.

[ErrolTheDragon]

Maybe one way to think about A levels is as a combination of skills and content.

Some uni courses require you to have acquired specific skills and content - eg sciences and engineering will require the relevant science and many require maths. They start from the assumption you know the stuff in the a level. Other courses may require skills - which may be mathematical aptitude, essay writing, textual analysis, data analysis but don't assume specific domain knowledge. Subjects which not all schools offer or which are more specialised, presumably have to be taught more from scratch.
So, in the latter category, you'll probably keep most doors open with a trio of subjects which are widely recognised as developing a spread of skills. Facilitating subjects.

[Irush]

Ah. Well she's doing biology and history as well AND also not aiming for a top uni so she should be fine. She absolutely loves the subject.

[Ciutadella]

Good point Senua! I think the move from 4 to 3 has made it seem more important - in some ways it is great not to have to do AS levels, but it does mean students may think there is less 'room' to do a less orthodox subject. Though of course some schools are continuing with the option of 4.

And then of course there is the question of whether it is worth doing an EPQ? We are told that universities really value this as an add-on - would be interesting to know if there is any statistical evidence that it may make a difference between getting a place or not at any particular university. (I appreciate there are also arguments that it is good preparation, but that is a separate issue from whether it really does assist with applications.)

[Needmoresleep]

Ciutadella, the quick way to identify oversubscribed/competitive courses it to go on the Complete University Guide website, look at the relevent subject and sort by "entry standards". The top 3-5 often have average entry standards some way higher than published entry requirements.

Which does not mean that you don't look at course content as well. The right course is not necessarily the "top" course.

There are lots of threads on the value of an EPQ. The main thrust seems to be that they can be useful personal development, but don't necessarily help with University entrance except on the margins. This though may change with the loss of AS levels.

[Ciutadella]

Thanks Need, that is a v useful tip! I agree with you that the best course for a particular student may not be the 'top' one.
All very complicated. Still, reframing, it is good that there is now a lot more choice then there used to be! (Talking a 40 year timeframe here, rather than 4 year! - the changes to A levels have paradoxically made it more restrictive since at a 3 only school students are now less likely to do a 'different' subject than when they were choosing 4).

[HistorianMum]

I teach in a Russell Group university. We haven't so far been using terms like 'facilitating subjects', but I think the idea is quite sound - basically, go for subjects that keep your options open by giving you skills that are useful for a variety of degree subjects. It's not that philosophy, psychology and economics are 'soft' subjects at A level, and it's great that your DD is open to doing stuff she presumably hasn't done before, just that you don't need them at that level to do them at university, whereas you might need maths or English.

EPQ: really good question. My department doesn't include it as a qualification as not all schools offer it, and the amount of preparation different schools give you varies a lot, so it isn't a fair comparison. Not that it's a level playing field in other areas. However, EPQs can be a really good experience and something worth discussing on a personal statement, as they can show how you go about researching something in an independent way, which is much more like university learning. The best EPQs are often on things really far outside the curriculum, and can make someone really stand out if they give a sense of it in their application form. We don't interview in my department, but I wouldn't be surprised if places that interview use EPQ as something to talk about.

[AppleMagic]

I'm guessing she's not a maths teacher. I would be very wary of taking maths A level unless she's absolutely nailed on for an A/A without having had any extra help from a tutor. Maths A level is a massive jump from GCSE and many students really struggle (even those who've done very well before).*

I agree, but additionally I'd caution against degree level economics if A level Maths would be a struggle. It's not just about what subjects will facilitate entry, it's about how well you do once you have a place.

[HistorianMum]

Sorry, just to add that in my department an EPQ has never made the difference between not getting in and getting in, as that would mean we were effectively using it as a qualification. Just doing one doesn't really impress people, as we know many schools more or less push able kids to do them. However, we do place a lot of emphasis on the personal statement, so the more someone is able to talk about the academic stuff they have done, which might include an EPQ, the better their chances. There is plenty of other stuff people can do if EPQ isn't an option.

[Irush]

What is the other stuff historianmum if you don't mind me asking?

[ErrolTheDragon]

We've come across a couple of courses which might drop one grade (eg AAA -> AAB) for a good (I think A/A*) relevant EPQ. They can be useful for engaging in (and demonstrating true interest in) an area you aren't doing an A level in. (and it may be used as a DofE skill)

[Dunlurking]

Ds had 3 AAA offers. Birmingham and Exeter both gave an alternative AAA + A/A EPQ offer. Bristol didn't.

[Bobochic]

I agree, but additionally I'd caution against degree level economics if A level Maths would be a struggle. It's not just about what subjects will facilitate entry, it's about how well you do once you have a place.

This, a thousand times. Any worthwhile degree in Economics requires a level of maths at entry, and an aptitude and willingness to do lots of maths, that anyone who didn't enjoy Maths A-level will find a terrible struggle.

[irregularegular]

I think she is narrowing down her options quite considerably. None of those subjects are likely to be required subjects for any degree courses, or even particularly recommended. Degrees in Economics/Philosophy/Psych are very unlikely to require A-levels in those subjects. They may well however require Maths, or at least highly recommend them eg 90% of successful PPE applicants have A-level maths and tbh it is a real struggle without. Whereas A-level Economics and Philosophy are certainly not required and are not really considered to be better preparation than sciences or other arts subjects (especially Philosophy). If she has a fairly clear idea of what she is likely to want to do then the obvious advice is to look at the required/recommended A-levels. But she should also consider the possibility that she might change her mind and keep her options open. Maths/Sciences/History/English/Languages will all be required for some courses. Dropping Maths in particular cuts out many options - or at least makes them harder.

[HistorianMum]

Errol and Dunlurking, that's really interesting to know, thanks. I see the point about showing an interest in a different subject, and would be impressed if someone said that on a personal statement, but in my experience, independent schools are more likely to offer EPQ than state schools, so I would be really nervous about including it as part of the offer.

Irush, for an arts & humanities degree, the more reading they can do, the better. Doesn't matter what, just has to show they are interested enough in their suject to read about it in their own time. They will be spending hours reading at uni, after all. On the personal statement, they shouldn't just list the books they've read, but try to say something about them - why they read them, what was good/convincing/difficult/surprising etc. For history, we sometimes get people who have been on archaeological digs, or done something museum related, but that will really depend on where you live and what opportunities there are. People also talk about all the historical places they've visited - again, if it's just a list, it won't be that impressive, if you can say something about them, much better.

[Me2017]

1. My children's school also says if you want to read eceonomics anywhere decent at university then do maths A level too (but only do maths A level if you adore maths and easily got your GCSE A*). Mine is doing A level economics and loves it. We know it is not a facilitating subject but their other 2 subjects are - geog and history.
   

1. Some non facilitating subjects are regarded as fairly hard and worth doing - I think some people have analysed what A levels people do to get on to particularly good degree courses and economics is often one of the A levels (although it's really interesting, I love it).
   

1. I endorse the advice above - pick any good school which has been around 100 years and see what A levels they offer, just do a web search and you can usually pick out the "mickey mouse" ones or the absence of them.
   

1. One of mine decided yesterday not to do the EPQ and the other is. I am happy to go along with their chocie. The first one (they are twins) knows he does not need it for his degree choice and is trying to ensure a fairly easy upper sixth year (yes, master of the laid back, let us do as little as possible) and the other seems happy to do it so that's their choice. I doubt it will really affect if they get in although the school is very keen they both do it. So I have left it to the twins to choose. It is quite a bit of extra work at their school particularly as they have quite a bit of A2 course work for history to do as well.

[titchy]

Me2017 (another name change - dear God!) - point 3 - glad you regard Design and technology, Music tech, and Theatre Studies A levels so highly

[TinklyLittleLaugh]

My DD applied for University with decent A level grades already in hand, ABB. None in really solid subjects (Eng Lang, Media and Art). The only Uni that didn't offer her a place was a Russell Group, even though her grades were what would normally be an offer for the course. She is doing fine anyway in an ex Poly that is well sought after for her subject (Art based).

[TinklyLittleLaugh]

Posted too soon.

So yeah, I reckon for that Uni, subject choice was important.

[horsemadmom]

There's a booklet called INFORMED CHOICES which is distributed by UCAS. If your school didn't hand it out, give them a good kicking. It lists facilitating subjects and recommends taking at least two.
This is where I get ranty.......When parents complain about how independently educated DCs hog places in top universities, it makes me weep and tear my hair out. The pathetic advice offered by some maintained schools destroys the chances of bright students by offering bad advice. I agree with the advice upthread- Look at what subjects are offered by top independent schools! They do not offer psychology, BTECs, Media, GS etc.......